Tending to the Inner World

Bill: Potholes in the road that I might fall in thinks Oh see we need to be vigilant all the time. And you ask me, well, why would you respond like that?

Marty: Right, because where it sends me is nobody loves me. Everybody hates me. I guess I'm gonna go eat a can of worms.

Bill: mom and dad were like live mines in a minefield. You needed to be careful where you stepped. You needed to be careful what you said, how you acted. Just had this inner battle going on and how I showed up in the world and how I responded the to the world was a reflection of that battle. Sometimes the battle raged on so long I would be left in depression with no energy left to fight it. You might think of depression as peace. It's not peace. It's anguish But here's maybe the thing that has not worked is that I do them all at once. go for broke, hit my goal, and then I celebrate and I start working right my way, right back up to my old habits again. Every single time.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Welcome to the Tru You Podcast. My name's Martin Ket. I'm an executive coach and author of a couple of books, um, one on listening and one on leadership. And I'm here with my dear friend, bill Tierney, who it's, uh, how would you describe your, your coaching

Bill: Compassionate results coach.

Marty: compassionate results Coach? I love the way those two. Up against each other in my mind. Compassion.

Bill: and results. Yeah,

Marty: Yeah. Yeah.

Bill: It just came to me one day that, man, this is a different way to approach helping people. This has been about, I think, I think about two years ago when it finally came to me. Yeah. That's what I do. I help people get results, but I don't do it by cracking the whip. I do it by getting curious with them about. You know when things aren't working. Let's get curious. When things aren't let's get curious. Either

Marty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It, you know, when, when, you know, my colleague Leslie Jones, who invented the spiral method, when she and I were business partners 109,000 years ago, she, she used to introduce our program by saying, this is a program about love and results. so, I totally vibe with you.

Bill: Very similar. Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. So our topic for today has to do with how we deal with ourselves when that, when love and results isn't working, when, when, or compassionate result, like there, there. We get frustrated because some, the result that we wanted to have happen didn't happen. Right? Or when we thought. We were in a love, compassionate relationship and suddenly it doesn't show up that way. There's, there's these times when, like, my mourning started out that way, you know, like, boom, three things happened. Like the our, I didn't want to have happened and, and so I immediately go to this frustrated place and I. Make it mean something. And so we got our, we got to talking about this earlier and Bill said what he made it mean when things like this are happening in his world, which they are today too. And um, and then we, we, we realized like, oh yeah, based on different pasts and also different constitutions, we make it mean different things, but we're both frustrated.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. What I was saying about the way my internal reaction that I noticed and re as I reported about it, would, would, would be best described, I believe is a state of vigilance. I, I, I think what I shared with you was when, when this most recent thing happened, a miscommunication, a frustration about mis misunderstanding. Uh, the part of me that thinks that I should be vigilant all the time, really careful watching for, uh, road speed bumps and, and pit. What do you call that then? Holes in the road.

Marty: Potholes.

Bill: Potholes in the road that I might fall in thinks Oh see we need to be vigilant all the time. And you ask me, well, why would you respond like that?

Marty: Right, because where it sends me is nobody loves me. Everybody hates me. I guess I'm gonna go eat a can of worms. Like I'm not, I, I, you know, desist from vigilance. I go to, you know, isolation and, and self abrogation.

Bill: And I, and I just wanna point out that you, when you say this, you're not exaggerating exactly, but you're also not representing who you are all the time. You're representing a part of you responds when things don't go well or right.

Marty: That's right. That's mm-hmm.

Bill: here. There's just a part of me that thinks that I should be vigilant all the time. And, and underneath all that is, um, uh, the world is unreliable. Events are unreliable. I can't count on anything or anybody,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: the core fear that then has to be serviced.

Marty: Yeah. Which is the same for me, but for some reason I make, I make it mean there's a tinge of, of there's no love for me out there, you know?

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Yes.

Bill: Yeah, that's so interesting. I wanna stay in, in conversation mode and not in coaching mode. My mind just now went to, oh man, that's, that's so interesting. Boy, where would we go in a session right now? And, but we're not coaching, I'm not coaching you right now. Uh, yeah, I mean, certainly.

Marty: Well, it might, I mean, what would, where would a session go that might be useful?

Bill: Yeah. So what I heard just now is the, the belief.

Marty: I.

Bill: The painful belief, that I'm not lovable. Nobody loves me. There's something, there's something about being loved that I have to bring attention to. I have to work for it.

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: along those lines

Marty: that's right. Yeah.

Bill: and, and what, and what I've learned is that, you know, for me to, guess at what that belief might be is helpful only as long as I offer it as a question. Rather than as a coach, offering it as the truth. I think this is what I heard and I, and with IFS fortunately, we can go directly to the parts that hold these beliefs and ask them is this, is this what you believe or what is it? What is it that you believe about this?

Marty: Right. Right. And, and I, I think that this points to what I was referring to as a constitutional difference, and you might, that might not be a good way to say this. So I, I'm, I'm, I'm very open to, you know, like we're, we're. We both take the, the similar kind of situation. We're we're not getting what we wanted and, and we're frustrated. And for me there's, it's got this ting of love and yours leads you, you know, I've gotta be more vigilant

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: and, and so that I, I'm calling it constitutional difference. We might come up with a better way of saying this. I think it refers. It references, it doesn't refer, but it references back to that I'm coming from, you know, like love is what the world is made out of and if I'm not getting what I want, then love is missing. So that's where the meaning comes from for me.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. And for me, it came, comes from the role that I took on, uh, growing up in my family, second oldest, oldest boy, alcoholic, violent family. And, you know, it was necessary for survival to, to, um, to be vigilant all the time

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and watch for, uh, anything and prevent it from happening before it happened. Uh, and then, but then once it did happen, like, and, and the, the echo of that is when things don't go my way today.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: originally it was about really painful, scary, hurtful things happening.

Marty: Right.

Bill: Uh, where I would go as, um, the second oldest in the family. And, and the responsible, responsible hero of the family was anger at those that prompted it, that that triggered it.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: mom and dad were like live mines in a minefield. You needed to be careful where you stepped. You needed to be careful what you said, how you acted. you, you didn't dare you. I, I mean, I was so vigilant and I felt like I had had it predictably down in an unpredictable, chaotic situation. You don't ask for something when they're in that state. You don't ask for your own needs, especially when when they're, when those tells, those signs are what's being shown up. Shown up. You certainly don't act for ask for anything after five o'clock in the evening. They're both drunk. That's not gonna go well. You're gonna be perceived as a problem, so why would you do that? And so I would go to blame, would go to blaming my siblings. Like, come on, why are you poking the bear here? Of course, I, I'd also be angry at my parents. So when, when something doesn't go right now, I mean, not always, but there are times when things don't go right. Now that those parts of me. That are looking for what caused it and, and and wanna get angry and blame. Those are still active sometimes, and they look to that person like, how could you, how could you draw that conclusion out what I just said, for example,

Marty: Mm.

Bill: how could you misunderstand after I put, went to that much effort to, to clearly communicate.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Uh, and so that elicits some anger. And, and then it also brings in the, the proactive like manager part of me that, that says, see now we have to even be more careful.

Marty: Even more vigilant. Yeah.

Bill: Yes. Yeah, and I think, I think, uh, the topic here, this is interestingly helpful kind of talk about it in this way and give it some definition. uh, understand myself a little bit better and my own reactions to it makes me wanna maybe not be so hard on myself for having any reaction at all. That's another part of what, what happens inside automatically, just to be hard on myself for having a reaction, uh, is what therapists would call probably self-regulation.

Marty: uh, I don't have a a good way of saying it. I'm just wanna say something. I hope you'll be patient with me.

Bill: Oh

Marty: I, I was coaching a woman this morning. she's the boss in the firm and there's one of the teams. has become a bottleneck that's holding the rest of the firm up right now. And she's very frustrated about it. You know, and like, what can I do to, you know, break this bottle and push this through? How do we get this? That's the energy in her right now. And I, and I, I'd, it just occurred to me in the, in the coaching call, like, well, what, what if we just went with that? There is a bottleneck. Like if you pu, if you push things in a bottleneck, it just makes things more tense and, and doesn't, you know, it doesn't solve anything. And, and I thought, well, what if we just declared that there's, there's a bottleneck and be with the bottleneck in whatever way, whatever that might mean. You know, they relieve the pressure. So that it can, so that, you know, it can start to go again. And um, and then we talked about different ways that, you know, what could that mean? Um, we don't need to go into the details of it right now, but it occurred to me as you were speaking, like what if you could have the opposite reaction when, when. Outside things happen. It's not that you need to be more vigilant, like, oh, maybe, you know, the reaction could be something the opposite. Like, oh, it's time for me to, you know, ease up or, you know, create some space or like something the opposite. So I'm not really coaching you, I'm, I'm just sort of sharing.

Bill: Yeah, as you were sharing that the bottleneck metaphor is similar to the log jam metaphor that I think that we talked about maybe two sessions ago. Two episodes ago, or I think we did. You recall talking about a log jam?

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Bill: the solution, the solution, uh, in the late 18 hundreds for logjam was to throw a piece of dynamite in the middle of the logjam, and it blew everything up and got things moving. Again. The bottleneck, the, the easiest way to break up a bottleneck is to break the top off the bottle.

Marty: Rake the bottle. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right,

Bill: It is not functional. We're not in business anymore.

Marty: right.

Bill: causes a lot of damage, but boy, we don't have a bottleneck anymore, and the tension's been relieved. Now we get to focus on a different problem.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Yeah. But I love, as you were describing, uh, you know, when things are clogged up like that, uh, if we can loosen it up by, you didn't use this word, but just, just claiming, normalizing, Hey. Yep. So we have a bottleneck now.

Marty: Yeah, exactly. Like, okay. Yeah. One thing that,

Bill: that is reality. Let's now, now let's be with that.

Marty: mm-hmm.

Bill: do we wanna do with it?

Marty: Yeah. One thing that helped in this conversation that I'm referencing from earlier today was, uh. I asked her to, you know, well, what, what is, what do you, what do you want the situation to be like? Right. You don't wanna be frustrated. You don't want to have a bottleneck like. Get embody for me for a second. Like what is the, and, and so that got her, you know, sort of in a different place. It took a minute, but you know, we, we are talking and, and, and eventually she, she started have new ideas. Like, oh, maybe I could ask for some help from outside the firm for that, for that department. Like somebody who knows their work and could come in and just help them out for a while to relieve their bottleneck. Like, and, and that that wasn't occurring to her before when she was in the frustration. Right. And so we had distinguished, okay, this is frustration. What is it that you wanna feel? Right?

Bill: That's great. You gave her a different place to stand.

Marty: Right. Exactly. And that, that seemed to help. And so, what was the word that she used? I'm just looking it up. Oh, she said, well, wouldn't it be great if things were flowing? And you could already, you could hear in her the change of her demeanor when she said that. Right.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Marty: And so, you know, for me this morning, a, a sim a similar thing happened. You know, I was being frustrated and noticing like, uh, this isn't me, that I don't like this feeling, and that just, just. You know, noticing that I immediately realized like, oh, I haven't meditated yet.

Bill: Um.

Marty: Like, because when I've meditated, I, those meaning making machines aren't going as, as, as fast and furious. You know, I, there's just more space to see like, oh, there's a, there's a, there's an issue and there's something, you know, to be with and to deal with. There's just more space in my mind, and so I guess I, you know what? By stopping and naming it, like, wow, what, who am I being here that I was able to see? Oh, well that's because I haven't, I haven't meditated yet.

Bill: Well, and you mentioned that you woke up an hour later than you'd planned. Your alarm was went off later than you thought you'd set it for, and so you missed your swim. At least you didn't do the normal thing that you planned to do every morning that helps you to get started,

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: sounds like swimming and meditating are how you start your day.

Marty: They are. And it's, and it really works. I see now, today when it, when it didn't get to happen the way it normally happens, I see. Like, wow, that really is effective. 'cause it normally, I don't feel like this in the morning.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. So that reminded me when you mentioned that earlier, that there's this concept, um, that Fink Parks my partner in Elevate Coach training. It about, uh, top down or bottom up.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And the top down is what you're doing. You are setting yourself up by meditating and swimming. Those are, those are the ways that you have found that best will regulate your nervous system.

Marty: Yes.

Bill: And, and in, in IFS we would call that, that that helps you to access enough of your self energy be able to navigate your day. In a pleasant and way that flows.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: And by not doing that, you're recognizing by not doing that. This morning, things weren't flowing, and that's the correlation is that you didn't do the top down. But would you say that you ha have, uh, that you're back to flowing again now?

Marty: I'm definitely am.

Bill: Yeah. I sense that. And how did you get there?

Marty: I went swimming and then meditated.

Bill: Yeah, so

Marty: Just didn't do it in the, you know, the first thing in the day. The day got started, and then I had to go do all that secondarily, but yeah.

Bill: down, proactive, you get up every morning and just, you've got a great habit. Swim, meditate. And when you missed that today, you paid the price, you started feeling the ab, you, you noticed the absence of flow, and I'm guessing you suffered a little bit.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah.

Bill: Let me just finish the thought. I know you got one there, and so by swimming and meditating now, it became a reactive thing and it restored you to, to your flow again.

Marty: Mm-hmm. That's right. That's right. Yeah. The, the thought that I was having is. That. Um, you know, even when I do these practices in the morning, that generally set me up to be, um, a compassionate results producer.

Bill: Yeah,

Marty: Um, sometimes things will happen that throw me off

Bill: sure.

Marty: and, um, I was just, what reminded me of it is the, the a client yesterday used. That exact phrase that you were using about regulating the nervous system.

Bill: Yes.

Marty: She used that phrase, and I stuck with her because it's useful. Very useful. And um, we both agreed that one of the things that we do when we get thrown off and need to regulate the nerve, our nervous systems, is to get into communication.

Bill: Yes.

Marty: Right to get to either clean something up or, you know, get complete with a, a person or just, you know, find a, you know, a, a accountability partner or, or a good listener to, to ex, you know, tell what's going on so that we can, uh, get perspective on it. So that's, you know. Does that fit Rachel's top down, or is that bottom up getting

Bill: would be, that would be, um, bottom up. You, you're already, feeling incomplete. Let's just use that word. Or, or, or, um, your nervous system is

Marty: triggered?

Bill: Say it again.

Marty: Triggered.

Bill: Triggered, yeah. Activated. And your parts are activated so you're, you're attending to. That so that you can come back into, um, an inner calm.

Marty: That's right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: that would be, uh, bottom up and, and top down is just proactive. I know that when I swim and when I meditate, this is quoting Marty, um, that I am calm insight and, and can be with whatever shows up. So I wanna mention that just as you and I popped on the screen together here today. I saw a message heard and then looked at my phone just as I'm coming on with you and I

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Because I felt like I had really attempted to be clear in my communication and considerate. And, um, when I asked how this person wanted to partner on this particular thing, the response was very brief and I thought I understood it, but, but they meant just the opposite. I took action on what I thought they meant. And then they corrected me and pointed out that I had taken action a against what they had intended. So, so this goes back to the internal automatic blaming,

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: like, whose fault was that? Was that me or was that them? And if it was them, I get to be mad at them. And if it's me, I get to feel ashamed.

Marty: Wonderful.

Bill: Right. And, and the update that's required is. That with this person and with probably 99% of the people in my life today, all that will be required to clean all of this up is to to have conversation again, which within, I almost guarantee it that within 60 to 120 seconds will both be laughing about. But the, these, these ancient parts of me that have been trying to manage the, the terror about stepping on one of those landmines.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: Forgets that I'm surrounded by lovely, loving, compassionate, caring who have the ability and capacity and to be responsible for their own experience,

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: may or may not like me have internal responses that are not functional until we bring bottom up attention to them. And as you say, I get into conversation with this person, especially I can spend a little bit of time with my internal reaction first and calm and come back into calm and not force myself an through my anger to, to try to manage and, and angry part or can try to manage a fearful part. This. So in other words, it's not about self-management. Uh, earlier, just before we, I, I wrote down that is is a word. Uh, if, if we weren't going to use the word self-regulation, which because it's a therapy term term, what would we use? Would it be self-management? And, and it's not that self-management means I'm controlling myself,

Marty: Yeah. Yeah.

Bill: but tending to whatever concerns, worries, fears and unmet needs get activated and triggered, and then. Noticing the automatic reactions to those worries, needs, fears, and unmet needs. I mean by tending to and, and doing so from compassion. If I can, if that can help me to be calm before I reach out and get into conversation to, to clean this up, it's gonna go really well.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Very predictably. It'll go really well.

Marty: Yeah, I like that distinction that you're making. Um, I, you know, it's, it reminds me of, the book, taming or Gremlin

Bill: You've mentioned this before. I have every intention to read it, and I never do.

Marty: but he's, he's talking, your gremlin is like your, your inner critic, really.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: And um. It's got a little bit different character or flavor, but ultimately, you know, it, it coincides with the notion of your inner critic.

Bill: Richard David Carson.

Marty: That's it. Richard Carson. And, um, and he says that you, he, he, he talks about a sort of Dao approach. He's, he's not a, strictly speaking a Dallas, but the point is that you, you. Rather than trying to manage this thing that is inner critic, that's, you know, wants to blame somebody or, you know, uh, tells you you're not lovable. In my case, the, that. That you, um, that you, it's more about just being, getting familiar with it. Like, oh, there's that, there's that thing again. You know, oh, we, we know this, this happens. Um, and, and this is what, when it happens, this is what it's about. Here's what's going on. And, and, um, kind of let it be, you know, um. Or, or tend to it. Um, if there is, if there is a way to tend to it. Um, but, but his point is that if, if we manage it, then it, it, it almost gives it more energy. It's, it's kind of like, you know. Um, don't throw the ball. The dog is going to wanna play catch, you know, or, or fetch. Don't, you don't engage with it. Um, if, if, um, if you don't want it to, to just get bigger and stronger. And that's, that's, that's his recommendation in that book. And it goes with what you're saying about, um.

Bill: interpret that, tell you how I'm interpreting that to see if I understand accurately. Um, so in other words, don't, resist it.

Marty: That's right.

Bill: Yeah. So IFS would actually take it a step further than that. So one would be resist it, engage with it. Battle do battle.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: The next level is don't resist. It

Marty: Right.

Bill: kind of point points to, well, what, what do you do? You ignore it. You, you,

Marty: He's saying, you, you, you need to be aware of it. In fact, what, what he suggest, he has some suggestions, but let me let you finish your thought before I stay with

Bill: I was just checking out my interpretation and I can see already that I was not accurate there. It's not about, it's not about, um, ignoring.

Marty: No,

Bill: It is about acknowledging but not engaging in any kind of a battle with it.

Marty: that's right.

Bill: And then IFS would've taken it a step further, which is to, to understand it.

Marty: Yeah. What he, what? That's, that's great. Those three possibilities. I think that's right on. Um, what, one of the suggestions that he has, this is so interesting and I have found it effective, is that you, you find something or create something that represents that part of you. And, and put it, you know, on your dresser or, or on your desk. So that what happens is, so it's, it is an un unconscious, thing that the, the mind sees, oh, it's over there. I'm over here. Like, I'm not that.

Bill: I see.

Marty: Right. And, and I, I have, I've used this myself and I've used it with clients. It, it actually happens, like there comes a moment where you kind, you, you, you're just like, well, that's ridiculous. I am, I'm not frustration or I'm not unlovable. Right. I, I see that now and it, it, it's a funny thing that happens and, and it, so it is a kind of tending to it.

Bill: Tending. Yeah. Yeah. Tending, right?

Marty: It is calling it this Daoist way of tending to it.

Bill: Yeah. I see. I see it. Yeah. That's good. approaches, way to ways to reframe. I think for years and years and years and years, I. Just had this inner battle going on and, um, how I showed up in the world and how I responded the to the world was a reflection of that battle. Sometimes the battle raged on so long I would be left in depression with no energy left to fight it.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Other times while the battle was going on. I found myself interacting and, and relating to the world with anxiety. Uh, neither of those describes inner calm or peace. You might think of depression as peace. It's not peace. It's anguish

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and I've lived it. I lived it, lived it for years and years and years, and I'm so grateful not to anymore.

Marty: And the battle was between

Bill: Parts of me.

Marty: the, the parts that wanted to do something about the situation and the parts that didn't, or, or.

Bill: Oh, just, I had parts that that shamed me for making mistakes. I had parts that knew I needed to take risks, even though I might end up making a mistake. So that battle was going on all the time.

Marty: I see.

Bill: I had parts in my first marriage that wanted, um. More intimacy with my wife and parts that in support of that, were trying to figure out ways to manipulate her, to want to have men to have intimacy with me. then parts of me that were angry and hurt that, that she didn't reciprocate. Um, they were all, and then parts that were saying, I shouldn't feel this way. I shouldn't, shouldn't want more than I can have, uh, that were saying it's because. She doesn't love you and, and then parts were saying No, it's because she's a mess. Just, mean, I could go on for the next hour telling you different examples of internal conflicts that were raging inside of me all pretty much at the same time.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: it's amazing. I was able to show up in the world at all and alcohol helped a lot.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Helped.

Bill: Right. So it, it, it kind of got 'em drunk enough to, so they'd kinda shut up a little bit

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: and, uh, or work, work helped a lot. It, I'd get 'em all, they had kind of all agreed that I, that being, being a hard worker was not, there was nothing to argue about there. It's just work really hard.

Marty: Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's, it, it's a way of getting, getting your mind on, off of it onto something else.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: Yeah. Lots of ways to manage myself in other

Marty: I see. It's so interesting because my whole thing about, you know, not being loved, you know, it goes back to like. My, my, my dad is in the pulpit preaching a sermon about God's love. And I am living in, like, in this, and I still do live in this belief that, you know, really the universe is all a product of God's love. And, and we are part of that. And so when things aren't going right, it's like, well, wait a minute. What happened? Does he not love me anymore?

Bill: Hmm.

Marty: Like, like that. Um, and, and, or, or, or, or is, or did he create a universe in which things go wrong? Like how could that be? Um, so interesting. The, the where, where these, the, the deep seeded places, these frustrations take us.

Bill: Right. Yes. And, and, and that require until the healing takes place. Until, until those, those parts of me get the updates, permanent lasting, sustainable updates until they're relieved of the burdens that they've been carrying around. They'll, they'll be susceptible to getting activated, getting triggered again, which will require me to, to do the, the maintenance of either managing them or tending to them and managing them. Just inflames the internal battle. Tending to them has a tendency to help them to calm a little bit. And, and then the deeper work, which I will characterize as healing work, uh, helps them to actually release those burdens so that they don't have to keep carrying them around at all. So there's a lot of different levels of, of maintenance, including the proactive type that you talk about, that you talked about missing out on this morning until you did it. The, and for you, again, meditating and swimming is what, what that is, and that works so well.

Marty: Do you mind if I ask what, what? What do you do proactively?

Bill: Uh, I try to get good sleep. I, uh, I

Marty: key.

Bill: with my wife 30 minutes a night at, uh, at night after dinner. I, make sure that we have, we sit, we have one meal that we sit down together with and, and get connection.

Marty: That's awesome.

Bill: Yeah. Uh, I don't meditate. I am not as active as I would like to be, at least as a part of me would like to be rather than running 30 minutes after dinner at night. Or in addition to that, I'd really like to get myself out in the morning first thing, because like you with your swimming when I was running, that's always set me up for a, for a great, great day. I like to write that. That for me is a, gets me in the flow.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, a lot of my clients, uh, that when I suggest that they, that they journal, they don't wanna meditate or, and I say, well, you know, try working the thoughts out in, in, in journaling and that helps a lot. It sure does. I, I think the sleep thing is also really important. I, I can't tell you how many people I know right now are having trouble sleeping. And that's, that's a very, very important element, um, for regulating, you know, it's natural, but it's it, and it's very important. Um, so we might do a whole episode at some point about, you know, if you're having trouble sleeping, you know why and what to do about it.

Bill: Yeah, and I do from time to time, have trouble sleeping

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and I'm committed to not treating things with any kinds of. F solutions. Um, I, I will weed out a headache or, or breathe or drink extra water. If I have a headache and eventually twice a year and I just had to do this a few days ago, I'll take a couple of Advil and I don't think that in the, is probably harmful in any way, shape, or form unless you're doing it every day. And

Marty: Right.

Bill: or often enough to actually damage your liver and kidneys and whatever else else it might do. So I, I, since I, um, quit drinking, I, something shifted inside where I said, well, if I, if I stop putting alcohol in my system, maybe there's other things I need to take a look at that I, that I. And putting in my system that aren't helpful. It, it, honestly, it took me another 12 years before I quit smoking cigarettes, after I quit drinking. But that was 30 years ago and I've been able to stick with that as well. And so, and we actually talked about this the other day when we were talking about the, the, the dilemma around food and my relationship to my body and that sort of thing.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I've ended up with, um. A pretty clear commitment to not putting chemicals in my body. I've recent, another example of this is I've, in IFS, there's a lot of conversation around doing hallucinogenics mushrooms and uh, what's the other one called? Anyhow, there's a lot of different things that you, that you could do that they say people are saying can really assist in the, um. Uh, relationship with parts helping to unburden and, and, and heal trauma and that sort of thing. And I, I believe that's probably valid and probably true, but I have this internal, um, imperative that says, no, no. It's, an interference. It's an interference with the natural state that's happening inside.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: I, if that's the right thing to do, I'm just noticing. It's just something I notice and, and, and

Marty: Yeah, well, I think you and I are the minority.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: So many people are all over, all over psilocybin and, and, um, what's the other one?

Bill: Uh, there's a lot of different

Marty: And the one that sort of, it, it, there's another one, uh, ketamine, right?

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Those are very popular right now. Um, and I don't, I don't.

Bill: the way, I wanna say that I don't have an opinion about that being bad or wrong for anybody else.

Marty: Me neither. Me neither. I just, yeah. I, I prefer, so this also brings up a really important point about regulation is what I'm, what I wanted to get to, um, because, uh, uh, what you put in what you're eating, you know, I mean, I, I just, I see the difference. Like I, I know people who drink a lot of soda. You know, with the fr high fructose corn syrup in it. And they, and they're not real well regulated and they wonder why it's, I mean, it's the corn syrup, you know, and, uh, and other things like, there are, there are times when you, when you need more. Protein and other times when you need more, um, uh, starch, uh, you know, you, you, it's, it's good to be aware of like, what am I feeling and, and what is, what food is calling to me to, to bring regulation or, or equilibrium.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: That's, that's very important. Um. Self.

Bill: There's no doubt about that. You, you're so right about it, and I'm way out of balance there. That, and again, this goes back to the, the previous, maybe it was the last episode that we recorded where you coached me, maybe it's been two episodes, but you coached me around my in finding a better balance and a better relationship with my body,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I, oh, let me just report about that, that, that I just listened, finished, listened to that episode

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I always do whenever the episodes come out, as soon as they come out, I, I, when I'm in my truck, I'll, I'll listen to it and as I listen, this, it's so interesting that when you were coaching me, it had one, um, very positive, supportive effect on me. I enjoyed the conversation. It was interesting and, and yet interestingly, when I listened to it again, I got more out of it. I got more outta your coaching than I got in the moment with, of the coaching, which by the way, since so many people are doing their coaching sessions online, uh, really points to the value of possibly recording them and listening to them again later from a different, possibly a different place than you heard it the first time.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So when I heard all what you had to say in the conversation that we were having the second time some something new occurred to me that hadn't occurred to me before, I share it? Sure.

Marty: Sure. Please.

Bill: Alright, so you may remember that, um, I, there was a, there was a little bit of disconnect between, well, why is it that I'm having so much trouble with choice around food when I've demonstrated that I can make a commitment and make a different choice around alcohol and cannabis and

Marty: Yes.

Bill: and, and to a, to a degree caffeine.

Marty: Mm.

Bill: I, I didn't mention that before, but caffeine. Uh, I limit myself to one cup a day and I was drinking half a pot a day up until about three or four months ago and, and just decided I was drinking too much caffeine. So I cut way back on that as well, and, I was, I'm, I'm, I'm very content. There's no, there's nothing in me saying I gotta have that half a pot of coffee. For some reason. My system is just fine with that. Now, I'd probably be just fine with not drinking coffee at all, except I'm really enjoying my lattes. But here's the thing. I got. I know that sugar has a, a real impact on my system. Um, on my, on my digestive tract and probably on my blood sugars on just all kinds of stuff changes my weight. It, it, um, changes how I feel depending on how much of it I eat. And so I'm remembering when I quit smoking cigarettes that I didn't just quit cold Turkey. I, I did a, a program where I cut back from 20 pe 20 cigarettes a day to, to no cigarettes a day, 20 days later by cutting back, cutting out one cigarette a day.

Marty: Oh really?

Bill: So by my, by my quit day, the day before, I'd smoked one cigarette. On my quit day, I didn't have a cigarette and I have not wanted a cigarette since then. And that's been 30 years. And I was a two pack a day smoker,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and the best I'd been able to do up to that point was get down to one pack. Um, so what, there's some magic in that. And when I was listening to that conversation that you and I had a couple weeks ago, I thought, can I do that with sugar? And um, so there's a lot of different things that I could implement. I could cut out sugar, I could cut out bread, I could cut out pasta. I could start walk running in the morning. Uh, I could count my calories, I could set weight goals, and I've done all of that in the past. But here's the, maybe the thing that, that, that has, has not worked is that I do them all at once. go for broke, hit my goal, and then I celebrate and I start working right my way, right back up to my old habits again. Every single time.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: um, what I am committed to doing is putting together a one year plan so that once a month I focus in on one area, in, in some way.

Marty: Okay.

Bill: For example, the first month very likely will be out processed sugar altogether.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: And then at the end of that first month, you know, really be aware, how hard was it? What happened inside emotionally? What parts got activated how do I feel are there, what are the benefits of, of having done that? And then at month two, make the next, you know, take the next commitment. What is the next action I'm gonna take? Will it be that I'll, I'll start walking in the morning for 30 minutes in addition to at night. Or maybe I even walk with the intention of running if my body feels like doing that for 30 days and no sugar now, and continue. Same thing.

Marty: Right,

Bill: Notice the benefits. Notice how hard it was. Notice how my parts react to it. tell you right now that I'm, that there's probably gonna be a part of me that feels like I'm, I'm having to sacrifice and, and I know what to do with that. I'm, if I'm not piling too much on myself and

Marty: right.

Bill: the system to take on too much all at once. probably given myself a better shot at having some success here.

Marty: Very wise. Very wise.

Bill: Well, I just wanna acknowledge that, that that clarity, that insight came out of listening for the second time to the conversation that you and I had once, once in person in real time, and I should say,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and then the other just listening and reflecting back and hearing it the second time.

Marty: That's great. That's great. Yeah. Awesome.

Bill: So thanks for the coaching coach.

Marty: You're welcome. You're welcome. Yeah. I, I no longer have, I used to always have a, you know, a bag of sugar in the, in the cupboard and, um, I don't anymore. It's been a couple years and, um, and recently I was supposed to bake something for a, a community event, and it required. Sugar and they, and I asked if they would mind if I didn't put sugar in it, if I used fruit or something to sweeten it, raisins I was gonna use. And um, they, the two moms said, no, this is for the kids. Well, so it's okay. It's okay to poison your kids.

Bill: busy training the kids to be sugar dicks at its.

Marty: But anyway, anyway, the, that's not the important part of the story. The important part of the story is then I had half a bag of sugar in my, in my cupboard,

Bill: Yeah, yeah,

Marty: and I started to think every once in a while, like, well, maybe just a little bit in my coffee, you know, what am I gonna do with this pound of sugar? Well, maybe I'll make something. And I made myself a pie and, and it, it made me sick

Bill: yeah.

Marty: because now.

Bill: what happens to me too when I, when I cut

Marty: System. My system doesn't want it now. You know, it's, and it's so interesting to me that, you know, something that used to be so yummy, just like at this point, oh no, thank you.

Bill: Yeah, so lemme just report as my parts listen to that. They're gonna, they're saying things like, don't even do this then. I mean, if it gets to the point where you can't even enjoy the thing that we enjoy so much, why would you even do that to yourself?

Marty: There's plenty of other things to enjoy.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we are getting very close to time. Let's summarize what we've talked about here so far. It's been an interesting conversation for sure.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: I don't know. We've, we've traveled ways. Well, I think, I think one of the key ideas that we discussed today was around what therapists would call key, would call self-regulation, and, and, uh. I would, I don't know what I would call it. I would just call it, well, from the IFS model, it would be a matter of, um, doing whatever we need to do to access more self energy and, uh, from the non IFS perspective, but also non therapy perspective. It might be what do, what do I need to do when my inner world is not calm, and what do I need to do to make sure I set myself up so my inner world stays calm?

Marty: Right. And we talked about both the top down and a bottom up approach. Um, which I think was also helpful to me to see like, oh yeah, there's, there's a way to address sort of as a reaction, a response to a situation. But then there's a proactive way of creating and generally more peaceful environment within.

Bill: And although we didn't name this or say it this explicitly, I'll say it now that, you know, we ended up talking about food and we talked about sleep. So there's a physiological, uh, aspect to what are we putting in our body and how are we treating our bodies, uh, and noticing. happens internally in terms of emotions and, and, and nervous system and reactions, uh, when we, when we do the kinds of things that we do and or stop doing, the kinds of things we've been doing. So, I, I haven't said this for a while, but I, or even thought, thought this, but I'll say it now. Uh, when I stop and reflect on, on my life and how I live it. Uh, it's pretty easy to see that I'm living it as an experiment, like what works and what doesn't. What if I, what if I just let myself go and, and, and don't practice any kind of self constraint whatsoever, and no intentions? Well, that's the part of the, in the experiment that I'm in right now. And then what happens when I do set intentions and, uh, and, and do, do stick to some commitments that I make.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And that I'm, I'm feeling myself shifting in that direction now.

Marty: That's great. Yeah. I like, I like that notion of an experiment, you know, and life as an experiment. Um, it, to me it brings a, a more scientific approach.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And an experiment kinda requires some real clarity and intentionality. What, what is the experiment?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: not just, it's just not a broad. Let's see what happens.

Marty: That's right. That's.

Bill: like, if I cut sugar out for the next 30 days, let me just track the results. What, what's my, what if I track my mood every single day? Like on a scale of one to 10, when I wake up in the morning, how empowered or disempowered do I feel? How and, and positive do I feel? How pessimistic and negative do I feel on a scale of one to 10?

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: even those two measurements for the next 30 days. And then maybe simultaneously I'll, I'll measure something, uh, like how's my sleep and when I cut sugar out and what's happening with my weight? Not, not to set a weight goal, but just what is happening with my

Marty: That's right. That's right.

Bill: do data collection rather than, than having goals to achieve.

Marty: But that is right. You know, you have to isolate. You can't change everything. It, you have to, you know, the, they do the, the same experiment in the labor, in under certain laboratory conditions to see if we change this one thing, how does that affect it?

Bill: Yeah. So just talking about it in this way makes me feel a little more committed to it. And, and, and it's like some self-accountability. So, uh, please, it's a request and permission at the same time. Ask me about it later.

Marty: I will be glad to do that.

Bill: Appreciate it. Okay, great conversation. Till next time. Bye.

Marty: Bye.