Permission and Safety

Marty: Today we talked about a couple of really tense. Conversations, and that can be had either between different individuals or between a practitioner and the client's parts.

Bill: That's right, and we talked about the protocol. The reason that came up is because I discovered in an IFS session with clients, with a client that I had skipped ahead in the line and assumed that I had. In, in informed consent and permission to use the IFS model in the coaching session, it became very painfully clear that this client and their parks needed better understanding of what I was attempting to do and why I was doing it, that that called on me to create this protocol.

Marty: And the promise of listening to this episode, if you choose to, is that you'll get to learn this protocol that Bill has invented that makes these conversations doable and healing and enriching.

Bill: Welcome to the True You Podcast. My name is Bill Tierney. I'm a compassionate results coach, and this is my partner, Marty Kettelhut. Dr. Martin Kettelhut. He is an author, he's an executive coach, leadership coach, excuse me, leadership coach.

Marty: Are correct.

Bill: Okay. And, uh, usual, uh, the, the pre the prerecord conversation has led us to a point where we we're in agreement about what we wanna talk about. today we had a couple of topics that that would've been, I think, very, very engaging. Uh, and what we settled on was protocol that I've been working on as an IFS. Uh, practitioner, uh, I use internal family systems in my coaching more and more all the time I'm working with other coaches and helping them to, master the skill of using IFS in coaching. And there has been, it's been, it's become evident that there's a nuanced awareness that we can bring to our coaching. helps the IFS model to be like turbocharged and have, have a much more effect than if we aren't paying attention to a couple of things. And so I, I kinda like the conversation today to be about what I noticed and what I'm recommending for coaches that use use IFS and as well as practitioners and therapists, if we have any that are listening, that will make IFS more effective. But I wanna go broader than that as well. I don't want it just to be, this conversation just to be about coaches and practitioners and therapists that know how to use IFS. It's also for clients and people that use IFS on their own and I think it's gonna apply across the board in relationships between people.

Marty: That's what I wanted to hear.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so you, and maybe a a, a place to start would be if you feel comfortable talking about the story that you shared with me. If you're not, I've got another example we can use about the conflict that, that there was between two people that you were able to successfully mediate.

Marty: Oh, I don't mind talking about it. Um, and I normally, our conversations bring a number of different examples, so do you want me to, to.

Bill: Yeah, just go ahead and jump in and we'll just, we'll just talk, use

Marty: So this is about a couple that have been married for many years, and there's some completion work to do. There's, in other words, some getting back to their true selves and the true self of the relationship I might add, because they really do love each other. But right now there's some old stuff. That's preventing them, really, it's limiting their ability to be as intimate and, and I don't just mean have sex as they could.

Bill: to be as connected.

Marty: Yeah. Very good. Um, and, uh, they, these are tough, these are deep conversations that they're dealing with, like, uh, extramarital affair, uh, just like the. Decisions that got made early on when kids started showing up in in the family, and you know. The father goes to work and did a really good job. He, you know, he made a lot of money and provided well for three kids and his wife, but the wife holds a grudge. You know, she, she wanted to go to work and she has, since the kids graduated from school, she's gone back to work. And so, but she holds, you know, like, why couldn't I be the one who, you know? And, um, I had to stay on with the kids and I'm behind in my career. So these are deep, long, uh, standing issues that he came to me and wondered, um, you know, how do I even broach this? I don't want her to feel like I'm bringing this up because she needs to change her attitude. 'cause she'll just resist that. So that's the.

Bill: Very wise. Very wise. Yeah. Yeah. And um, that is such a, a wise stance, especially, especially given the, how. Uh, crucial. The, the communication needs to be now between the two of them if they're gonna be able to reconnect and, and get to the level of intimacy connection that they want.

Marty: That's right.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about what, what happens when a system is under pressure, when, when a, a human, human internal system is under pressure, and, and in this example, your client is under pressure in his relationship with his wife. His, his wife is under pressure and by under pressure, I just mean is an internal tension that's created by internal conflict, opposing positions about how things go, how things should go, how things have, have gone. And what, what, like what we should be doing now, naturally, I'm talking about parts and IFS that and, and this, this is true for everybody that I know that we experience internal conflict. It's, it's some people there's more internal conflict than others. And, and that's seems to be based on how much unresolved, incomplete still there is to, to get complete about to, to resolve. And, and that just puts the, the, the system under pressure and, and that kind of pressure creates an environment of danger, threat, and, and safety.

Marty: Mm-hmm. It's good that I just wanna underscore some totally basic, um, before we move on. And that conflict within, 'cause they, I mean, they wouldn't still be together if they didn't love each other, if they weren't committed to each other's happiness. And their children's, and so it's not just, you know, conflict. There's also So, yes, internal conflict.

Bill: Uh, you're saying it's, there's not, it's not just the conflict between each other, it's conflict within themselves as

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and that's, that's kind of where I listen from. I listen for that my coaching

Marty: I know you do.

Bill: and, and it's usually quite. Useful. Sometimes it's not though. Sometimes when my client or the person that's in front of me would prefer that I wasn't listening that closely or in that way, they then, then it doesn't go very well. And so that's one of the pieces of this

Marty: because they feel caught like, oh, you got me here.

Bill: potentially, yeah, potentially it feels, it just feels dangerous. And the reason it probably feels dangerous is because I've been. Maybe less skilled than I'd like to be. And this is an area, this is what this protocol is about, is becoming more skilled in getting permission, getting informed consent to offer assistance.

Marty: Okay.

Bill: That is a breakdown that can prevent the connection between two people, whether it's a coach helping a client, two people that are in conflict that wanna resolve it. a mediator that's in the middle of two people that are in conflict. And maybe those people wanna resolve it. Maybe they don't. Maybe they just wanna both be. Right.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: You had another story that you shared before we hit record about a conflict that you got, you, you stepped in the middle of to mediate. feel comfortable sharing about that?

Marty: Sure,

Bill: it's okay.

Marty: sure. I don't think any of these people listen to the podcast.

Bill: Well, as long as you don't name 'em, we should be okay.

Marty: Right, right. Um, yeah, this was a meeting, I'll keep it really vague that way. in which, one of the two people in the conflict had been very generous in advance of a financial problem and paid for it for everybody else at the meeting. It was some, it was a bur financial burden that all of us are now facing, but he took care of it in advance 'cause it needed to get fixed and, um, it was water main burst in our building. And, um, and uh, now, you know, we're having a meeting to resolve that and get him paid back. And one of, one of the people in the group was like, this is you. You went and got, you went and made this happen. It is, this is your responsibility, you know, and I wanna wait and see what insurance is gonna pay for. Right. And uh, you know, the rest of us were. Unified and saying, well, let's get him paid back first and then we'll see what insurance pays. It's gotta get paid for anyway. Um, he's gotta get paid back anyway. And, um, and they got into a row that, you know, um, he was like, well, you know, I'm just trying to, you know, uh, do the right thing here. And she's like, don't lecture me about what the right thing is like that.

Bill: Some defense, a lot of defensiveness and Yeah. Yeah. And so, so what role did you play?

Marty: As you said, I mediated, um, I, I could see that as hard as he, the harder he tried to, to mansplain her,

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: the worse it got and I just jumped in and, um. I can't remember exactly what I said honestly, but I have more of a rapport with her and I was able to have her see, like, look, we just, this, we will, I promise we will get on the insurance piece, but for now, like we all have money, like we need to pay him back. But I said it, I don't know, in a, in a way that connected with her and that in a way that he was not able to.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. It, it, I'm, I'm, it's sounding like, and I'm gonna guess and you, and check it out with you, that, that part of what you did was you were able to present the facts and not opinions.

Marty: That's right. That's absolutely right.

Bill: flattened it out, you neutralized it,

Marty: Right?

Bill: out of it.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: That's right. And they have this, they have a longstanding difference of opinion on a lot of things.

Bill: Right. They're, they're, they've, they've been in conflict

Marty: That's, that's, that's right. Bill. You hit it on the head. Because I remember I was just like, to her, I said, I, this is not what any of us want fact, and yet we have to take care of it.

Bill: and he paid it.

Marty: Yeah. He was nice enough to go ahead and pay that.

Bill: And he's just asking us to reimburse him for, for that payment.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And I suppose if you had an opinion, you probably expressed that, that you believed that that was the right thing to do.

Marty: Well, I even said her something like, if, if, if you had been the one in the moment who had to get it paid, we'd be paying you back.

Bill: Yeah. And, and so you were successful in, in resolving it. You were. On the side of the facts rather than on the side of either party.

Marty: That's correct.

Bill: Yeah. And when each party sensed that from you already, you had built trust, already, you said they both like me. What I'm, what I interpret that to mean is we don't like people we don't trust. So if they like you, they trust you.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And that may or may not be true for everybody in every relationship. I might say I like Joe, but I might, I wouldn't let him in my house. So maybe that, maybe it's not a blank statement that I can say just 'cause I like them, I trust 'em. But my sense is they must have trusted you, especially given how it went.

Marty: Yeah, and I won't go into the whole history of my relationship with each of them, but that's totally accurate.

Bill: Yeah. Okay. So, so now if I, if you don't mind, I'd like to take this now and apply it to this protocol that I've been talking

Marty: I'd love to.

Bill: so in this story that you just shared, you stepped into an a conflict between two people. The IFS facilitator steps into a conflict with two parts of their client.

Marty: Need.

Bill: Yeah. very much like your story. It's predictable that the two parts in that conflict have been at odds with each other for some

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: and in fact, so much so that that is kind of the nature of their relationship. I am at odds with that other part of,

Marty: It defines it. That's right. It totally defines it. It's like, there's only one road that from me to you, and it's a, it's not a good one.

Bill: Right, you're right. So the relationship might be de described as win or lose,

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: uh,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: dominated.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Um, and so in order for you to have, have resolved that, I assume you didn't say this out loud, but did you resolve it? Did she agree to pay?

Marty: She did, we took a vote, uh, you know, that's in, uh, that we took a vote. And, and she, that, that's how the whole conflict got started is at first she refused to participate in the vote.

Bill: Yes,

Marty: um, and then finally in the end she said, yeah, yeah, I'll pay.

Bill: Yeah. Before you stepped in to mediate, did you ask permission to do so or did you have implied permission?

Marty: In this case, I think it was implied. I don't think I asked. It was, it was a very heated moment and I just stepped in.

Bill: Got it. Okay. Are you in a, in a titled position where that is granted,

Marty: I am the president of this organization, but

Bill: have some authority

Marty: sort of

Bill: and apparently both of them accepted your help. But it was a dangerous thing for you to do.

Marty: it was.

Bill: The danger in that was that you could have made it worse

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: by trying, I when you said mansplaining, you know, the more he tried to mansplain the, the, the hotter she got or the more difficult she got or the, I can't remember exactly what you said, but the more upset she was, you were gonna say the more he tried to manage her. But that's what mansplaining is. Is an attempt to, oh, you don't understand. Let me explain to you just this hammer, that, that drives that nail into that, so that those two pieces of wood can not stick together.

Marty: That's right.

Bill: Mansplaining,

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: and it's demeaning and condescending. And, the, but the most offensive thing about it is that when there is a conflict like this, both parties want to be seen, known, heard, understood, and appreciated for their position.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And when we're arguing with each other and saying, no, you're wrong. I'm right. No, you're wrong. I'm right. There's no understanding. There's no hearing, there's no seeing, there's no none.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So this is, that's why these conflicts go on and on and on and on and on. If we go to your other example, the couple that had a rupture, huge sounds like a huge rupture in their relationship. both agree that they want to repair that rupture. But now the hard work is do we do that?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: This, this is where this protocol that I'm working on and developing, I'm not finished with it. It's just I recognize there's a need for it. I've attempted to kind of fill the gap and meet that need, and I'm not quite satisfied that I have yet, but, but there are some elements like order for a conflict to be mediated, whether it's an internal conflict between parts or with two people. There needs to be an agreement that that's a shared, that's the shared outcome. The aspirational outcome is that we have an agreement

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: that, that we arrive at some sort of an agreement or some sort of resolution.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And when I let, now let's go back to the example of you stepping in. And intervening into that conflict and then successfully mediating it as dangerous as it was, the conditions apparently allowed it, and you were able to be successful. But I certainly wouldn't recommend attempting that, that without agreement from both parties if, if I were not, because I'm scared, although I certainly don't wanna get in the middle of a, of a poop throwing fight, but. Because I wanna be able to, I really want to be able to help. And if I'm gonna insert myself in a situation where my help is not wanted or appreciated or recognized as valuable, I'm only putting myself in harm's way,

Marty: You are just, yeah, you'll get poop all over you.

Bill: right? Yes. Yes. So that's one piece of the protocol is permission. you want my help? And if, if the answer's yes.

Marty: And do we. Of this to be an agreement.

Bill: Well, and that would be the next, that'd be the very first negotiation.

Marty: I see.

Bill: first of all, would the two of you like my help? Well, if, if she says, yes, I'd like your help, she has one thing in mind. And if he says, yes, I'd like your help. He has something else in mind. You know what they both have in mind. I want you to help me

Marty: Right,

Bill: the other that I'm

Marty: right. Yeah.

Bill: Very likely. So the second step has to be, what would that help look like? How would you know you were helped? And maybe what happens is that very thing that I just said is acknowledged. I want be recognized. I want, I want someone to recognize how right I am about this. It's not fair that you spent my money and then asked me later to give it to you. Is her position. And he's saying it's not fair that, that you're exploiting my, my generosity and threatening not to pay me back. Both, both are are right, but neither are being heard, right? So if I'm gonna step in and mediate, then I need permission to help. And then I need clarity about what the, what that help would look like Once I've heard from both. wanna be right. You wanna be right. What if you could both be heard, you know, as a mediator, maybe that's, that's the first offer I'd make. See if I can get permission to help in a way that I know would be helpful. 'cause I also know that just valid taking either side is gonna be a problem.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: So that's part, part of the protocol. Permission informed choice. So, so then the, the next thing would be, let me tell you how I intend to help. If we, if we all agree. That, that the help would be that each of you would feel seen, known, heard, and understood before we attempt any kind of an agreement. Would that be a good place to start? And of course, who's, who's gonna say no to that? The only que, the only argument now is who goes first. And that's exactly what we do with the IFS model is when we identify an internal conflict. We get, well, if it's gonna go well, it's gonna go well because we have informed consent and permission. We're, we're only gonna proceed if it's okay, not only for the two that are in conflict, for the ripple effect that are being impacted by it as

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: There were other people in that meeting. It was you, those two and more people, right?

Marty: Right.

Bill: Imagine that you had turned to everybody else and said. Is it okay with you to stay in this room while I attempt to mediate this conflict between these two people? Or would you rather go get coffee while I do it? They, they would've hightailed the outta there probably, right? Yeah. Or maybe they would've stayed. Maybe they would've really loved to, uh, experience that. But in any case, I'm, I'm assuming they stayed.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: My point is they were, they were affected by it.

Marty: Right? Oh, yeah.

Bill: So one thing you might have done, I'm not, by the way, this feedback is not to give you any correction at all. It sounds like it went great.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I'm just using your example. But what if you were to turn to, let's say, one of the, uh, one of the parties that's not in the conflict and said, um, do you have any concerns before we proceed? Are there any concerns that you have? Do you have any needs that we need to address first? And what about you and what about you? Now everybody gets accommodated. All right. And now we have permission from everybody that's, that's gonna be impacted by this.

Marty: Uhhuh.

Bill: And that's everybody that's been impacted so far. Probably.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: Yeah. So again, another level of permission. And now finally we bring, we get to the point where, uh, okay, so who's gonna go first? We're gonna, we're, we've got the time, we've got 30 minutes here. That means we've got 15 minutes for each of you. You can take up to 15 minutes to make your case, not as an argument. Please speak so that you can be understood.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Please speak to, provide us with the information and deliver it in such a way that we can understand, help us to keep our, our ears open.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So rather than like using offensive language and blaming and throwing out, uh, accusations, can you just help us to understand what you're, what it is that you're trying to accomplish? What your, what your fears, concerns, worries are, what your needs are and what you hope to accomplish by doing what you do. Okay? Thank you. And now we move to the other one, guaranteed. Both parties are gonna understand each other better. The, the tone in the room is gonna soften now we have the opportunity, the possibility I should say, of connection, the beginning of the possibility of

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: So permission recognizing, recognizing when there is a conflict, naming the conflict offering to help

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: Whatever concerns, like, um, like the, the third parties on the outside of the room. Hey, if something comes up for you, I want you to, we want, we want you to let us know.

Marty: I suppose, and you know, at this point in the setting it up so that things can, uh, so that each party can be heard. It might also be good to say, look at, if at any point. In this, it's not going well. And you know, you, you're not happy with what's happening. You get to say, I, you know, I'm, I, I'm exiting the conversation that.

Bill: Absolutely. And, and you know, I'm, I've been guilty of this as a, as a facilitator of the IFS model. I've been guilty of trying to man mansplain or manage. Parts that have concerns. Wait a minute. No, I'm really wanting to talk to this part over here. And here you are coming in and you're saying this and that and the other, and you're distracting me from having this conversation and you're making it unsafe. So I need you to step back. Can you leave the room? Well, this part might feel safer except for in the back of the back of that part's mind or that person's mind is, oh, am I gonna be asked to leave the room too if I, if I misbehave?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Yeah. Thanks for protecting me and taking a stand from me and making it safer for me to speak, but somehow, oddly, I don't actually feel that safe

Marty: Uh

Bill: with you anymore because you, you just disrespected this other person part. So take a moment. Okay. What is your concern? Okay. Okay. Here's what I think I understand. Is that what your concern is? Yeah. Okay. Do you have a clarity about how you'd like that addressed? Lemme see if I can let me see if I can accommodate that.

Marty: mm-hmm.

Bill: I can't quite do that, but how about this?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Okay, great. Um, is it okay for with you now that we proceed with where we were? Great. Now you get back to it. But I love the point that you're making right about, um, if it goes, if it isn't going well for anybody at any point,

Marty: Right, because, because when we agree to it, we don't know where it's going to go.

Bill: That's right.

Marty: And so if at some point I recognize like, oh, I see where this is going. Forget it. I'm not, I don't wanna be here.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: that, that's allowable. That needs to be, you need to know that you can, you can walk away if you need to. You are not, you're trapped here in my method of solving this.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And with that permission, with that acknowledged right up front, every You're at choice. You're at choice. You're at choice. Then. They might still leave, but they, they would leave with a show of protest and a statement and some, and, and of course they're, they're gonna have to do that with some rigidity and stay leaving, stay gone just to make their point. Whereas if they've got permission in advance, they can leave and say, yeah, I do need to take a little break here right now. This is not going well. Frank.

Marty: Can I in, in just insert something? I don't wanna break down the flow here, but

Bill: doing great.

Marty: I think that everything that you're pointing to is equally applicable to an accountability relationship. You know, when you're holding somebody, like are you, are you going to take out the trash every week? Yes, I'll take that on, you know, like that. And okay. And I'm gonna hold you accountable to that. 'cause you said you'd do that, you know, like it's all, it is. Same thing. Like, can I hold you accountable to the asking permission? You know, and, and what would that look like then? Would you like me to ask you every week if it's not done or you know, like you have to set it up. All of that, I think is equally app applicable to

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: somebody accountable.

Bill: Yes. Yes.

Marty: In fact, maybe these conversations that we've been talking about are just species of the genus accountability,

Bill: maybe, yeah.

Marty: right? As a, as a, as an as a coach, as a, as an IFS coach in particular. Right. You are holding people accountable for representing, you know, telling you the what parts are there and, and for attending to them and reporting back to you, all of that. It's, um, right, it, it takes place in a, in a container, uh, where you, you are the one to whom the coachee is accountable.

Bill: Well, I don't really think of it that way. I did, I used to, before I became, began using IFSI no longer. See myself as an, an accountability partner than to whatever agreements we might have.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And, and, and then my approach to accountability is compassionate accountability.

Marty: Of course, of course. But I mean, I think it's that. You know, it, there's an agreement here, like,

Bill: Yep.

Marty: we're agreeing to dive into this problematic, this tension, this conflict, and, you know, so that's, that's a sense in which, I mean, it, um, it, it is a very broad sense of accountability in that respect. But, but I just, I just started to hear like everything that you're saying. I just wrote a talk for a conference on accountability.

Bill: So that's the

Marty: was like, wait a minute. This is all the same stuff that I've been saying about how to hold someone accountable. So anyway, I think there's at least an affinity there.

Bill: I'm think, yeah, I think so. And, and I know that I've talked about this on the podcast. Uh, the agreement that I have with my wife that we connect every week, and we use those six prompts that we answer in, in, in advance. We journal about our answers to these six prompts, four questions, and two, two prompts, and then we share with each other, uh, during that time. And one of the, those six, uh, is what commitments have we made in the past and how, how are we doing with those?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: What that looks like. Our agreement is that I hold myself accountable and she holds herself accountable. the only time that, that we would switch over to the other side of the aisle, it would be, if I made a commitment last week and I don't mention it this week, she might say, oh, I had a note here that you were gonna, um, you were gonna do some of the meal planning. Meal planning with me. Do you still want to do that

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: or, I noticed that we didn't do that this week. Did you forget or have you changed your mind? it's, it's there. It's, it's courageous. Uh, it does take some courage

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: it's a scary thing to, to hold somebody accountable to, to say, you said this and you didn't do it.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Can we talk about that?

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: I.

Marty: Yeah. I, I just think that this, these, these, uh, steps to a protocol, um. They, they're very powerful. And, and they, I think maybe not all of them, but they, I I'm just noticing that they, they do have that, uh, they're applicable to that kind of a setup too. An accountability setup. ' cause it's about staying connected when it's difficult.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah, that can be a big, big challenge. I'm finding that it's less and less challenging to me all the time, I attribute that to the deep work that I'm doing, the healing work that I'm doing,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I'm less triggered, I'm less activated all the time. As time goes on,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: it's not because I care less, it's because those parts of me that had unmet needs and ongoing unresolved. Concerns, a lot of them have had those concerns addressed. A lot of those needs have been met, but mostly I believe that, that my internal family of parts has just grown to trust that I am, that there is a, a fully resourced version of me

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: they can rely on to be, to operate with honesty, integrity, love, care, compassion.

Marty: This also reminds me, so I, I'm just looking at, at what it takes to do this protocol or to, or to have these, kind of conversations just to acknowledge it, like it, there's, it takes something of, from a, and it's reminding me of the sermon in church on Sunday. Believe it or not, the sermon was about, um, the, that moment when Jesus asks John the Baptist to baptize him. And John the Baptist is like, wait a minute. Shouldn't you be baptizing me in the Holy Spirit, not me baptizing you in water? It's this symbol like you are the, you're the savior, you're the Christ that we've all been waiting for. We've been getting baptized in anticipation of your covenant, and you want me to baptize you. And Jesus is both stubborn and has solidarity with John the Baptist. So those are the two. Sort of, you know, energies that we need to bring to these kind of conversations. Stu, like, I'm stubbornly in this with you, right? And it's gonna be difficult. But let's make the, let's, let's go forward. And I'm on, you know, I'm here with you. I'm solid, I have solidarity with you, right? And, you know, there's gonna be difficulties, but let's, let's stick to it. And so, you know, then John the Baptist, like, okay, okay, I'll baptize you after all, you know, we have the, there's this implicit agreement that you know, you know what you're doing. And.

Bill: That's great.

Marty: Right,

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. I, as I'm listening, I'm imagining a couple, like the one that you mentioned, who in the face of the rupture and the shared, uh, intention to repair. That, that if they're gonna be successful, it's gonna be because they, partially because they've both taken a stand for the relationship.

Marty: right. That's the solidarity piece and it's gonna get different, difficult, you know, we gotta stay in it, you know, to get through this. Um, otherwise the, you know, the tension, the conflict will still be there.

Bill: Yes. And, and the prospect. I can speak from my own history that the prospect of staying, staying in the conflict when it's that scary

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: has been too much for me in the past. I have left relationships because of my fear and my disbelief that we had the capacity that I had. The capacity, that we had the capacity to. Endure what we were gonna have to experience in order to repair the relationship.

Marty: Right, right. Yeah, I've done that too.

Bill: There's a, there's a lot of factors that go into that. I didn't, I didn't believe that I was capable of it, and I didn't believe that they were capable of it. And, and, and what was, what I did believe in was my fear if I attempted. If I continued to take the stand for the relationship, the partnership, whatever it was, that I was gonna get hurt,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and that fear was far greater than my solidarity, my commitment to the, to that solidarity.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: When, when two people, a person defends themselves, they're doing so because they have something to protect. They have something to prevent, and there's gonna be a breakdown there. As long as the protector is leading the way, as long as it's not safe for. The vulnerability to be named

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: then addressed that's a potential breakdown right there

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: in the, in the and, and connection that, that we're after evolution of the relationship and the connection that's necessary to get there.

Marty: So that, and that's why asking for like the, the protector, he, he goes away when, when you've got permission, you've agreed to the outcome and you, you to what it's gonna look like and all that. Um, then the protector backs down. Is that what happens?

Bill: I don't, not, not especially. I think eventually we hope that, that the protector will be able to relax, not back away from their position, but relax because their positions have been seen, heard, known, understood, appreciated, and addressed.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: There is so in the IFS model, a protector's reacting to something that's happening. Sometimes it appears that what's happening is something on the, in, outside of the person, but happening outside of the person activates something that's happening inside of the person,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and that is what gets the cycle going, or that's, that's the, that stage of the activation in a cycle of protection. So we wanna get curious about what's the goal, what's going on right now? It, it's, it's just pure gold. If we can stop there and slow down someone, get someone, whether it's a part or a person gets defensive, that's just gold. I can remember sitting in a counseling session with my second wife and, um, my, I felt attacked by my wife in, in this counseling session, and I began to defend myself.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And the counselor said to me, bill, why do you think you have to defend yourself? Which seemed like such a bizarre question

Marty: Right at that moment, it's like, well, you're attacking me. What do you think?

Bill: Right? Isn't it obvious she's attacking me? I, if I don't defend myself, then I'm just laid out here to be trampled on, and I'm not gonna sit here and be attacked. What I didn't understand, and I don't know if the counselor did or not, she, she may have. Was that there was an opportunity here to notice my defensiveness what it is that that was getting hurt by the perceived attack.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: If that had somehow been facilitated in the way that I'm suggesting right now, like, for example, it might have sounded like from the counselor. Can we pause this right now? Something just now happened. Bill's wife, you said this to Bill.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Bill perceived that in some way where he felt like he had to defend it.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: Is that the result that you wanted by saying what you said to him

Marty: All right. Good.

Bill: and Bill, is it, are you open to the possibility that if your wife says, no, that's not what I intended of understanding what she actually didn't intend,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: or it could have gone this way. Can we notice right now that your communication style isn't working? Bill's wife, the way you're speaking with Bill right now is not being received by him.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Bill, the way you're reacting to what your wife is trying to say to you right now is not working well for her either. It's only escalating her.

Marty: Right. Right.

Bill: Are you guys willing to try something different?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Would you like my help? If you had my help, how would you know it worked? What outcome would you be each? Like, can we take turns?

Marty: This is so good. It's so nuanced, uh, to use your word. Um, I remember one time I was being coached in, in, uh, about a conflict, um, by not so refined a coach is you. Um, and, and I was getting defensive and he said, why are you getting defensive? And I had to be the generous one in that I had to go, well, I guess there's some other way that I could hear this other than as an attack. And so I had to generate, I, so maybe you're actually trying to be on my side in some way rather than attack me. Okay. Let me try and listen for this other way, but I didn't get all that nuanced, you know. Slowing it down. How else could this go like you, that it's beautiful what you've created.

Bill: It occurs to me that. Someone's listening now and they're thinking, well, of course you're gonna be defensive

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and, and, okay, so that sounds really great. Sounds elegant. It's wonderful. Yeah. The counselor's gonna step in and, and propose that, that we try something different. That's great. But that's not the way life is. That's not the way it works. You're not married to my wife, you're not married to my husband. You know that that wouldn't fly at all.

Marty: For, and I'm not living in your head either where this is where this

Bill: Exactly.

Marty: happening. Yeah.

Bill: So I, I couldn't have in, in that situation, at that time in my

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: there's no way that I even had the capacity to generate that kind of a, uh, of a shift

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: by myself. Had that particular counselor offered it, maybe,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I needed to be educated.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: not in my toolbox. I didn't have that skill set. I felt vulnerable and attacked and my mode was defend.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: My emotion was fear. That's just where I was living at the time. Needless to say, that relationship did not work out.

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: Yeah, we, we made each other suffer a lot. It was a miserable, miserable marriage because we lacked the skills and we didn't have anybody in our lives that were able, were able to come in offer help and negotiate and, and even if we had, we may not have been able to accept it. I don't know. This is something that you really have to be ready for and it goes at the back to the very beginning of the protocol. Do I want help? You? And I know both as coaches, that, that when we attempt to help somebody that's not coachable. we're wasting our time and we're pissing them off.

Marty: Mm-hmm. That's right.

Bill: So it's gotta start there. But once somebody does want help, now how much willing does, does they have? How, how far out of the comfort zone are they willing to go? 'cause that it can, it's gonna get uncomfortable if we try something new.

Marty: I have a, uh, a colleague who. Uh, as invented a, a protocol for, engendering, not just facilitate, but engendering better communication in corporate environments. And she uses this simple little tool of like a, a traffic light. She says, you know, they check in throughout the conversation. Have I have, I got a green from you? Or you know, is this getting in the yellow zone or are you saying it's red? You know, we need to, we need to stop.

Bill: I love that. Is that Leslie?

Marty: Yes.

Bill: Go ahead and, and promote her here. Tell, tell everybody about Leslie.

Marty: Yeah, well, she's, it's a, it's a very powerful tool called the Spiral Method Spiral because things spiral upwards and, and get better. I think that's, that's how I interpret it. But, um, um, it's a. There's, it's really, it's an invention of, of simple games, very simple games. And, um, they, they, I've used this with the corporate teams myself and, and, um, it, it gets people in a more intuitive, heartfelt space. Is, is what it does. So that, and you. So that you're not coming from old tapes that you've been playing. Right. You tho those are fine. There's nothing wrong with those, but, but this puts you in a different spa in the broader space of your soul or heart or intuition. I'm not sure how to relate that, but it's, it's not just like. Already created patterns and that's what these games serve to do, is to put us in that space so that we can see new ideas, new ways of relating and, and so it makes us very creative and things spiral.

Bill: Yes, and I've, I've been fortunate enough to experience that with Leslie and you, and it, it, it, it can feel scary. We didn't, I don't recall that we did the stoplight, uh, metaphor, but I love that, that, that's really great.

Marty: Yeah, we didn't get into that piece of it, but that is, that is a part of it, um, that I, I. You know, I find it's very useful. You can, you can, you can just say, look, uh, this is getting in the yellow zone for me now. Okay, great. You know, and what she will say to people, her coaching, when people say they're in the yellow is like. Can, you know, can you be with the heat? Is, you know, is can you, can you feel that this heat is moving somewhere healing? And, and if yes, great, we continue. You can, you can still function in the yellow zone. It's when it gets into the red zone, they say Look too much, too hot.

Bill: You were the words that you were looking for to describe the green zone. where. You are still feel, I guess, still feeling comfortable, still feeling op, feeling open and

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: willing to take some risks? Maybe?

Marty: Right. Right.

Bill: I would describe that we would describe that in the IFS model as being self energized or be self-led.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: There's enough self energy present to be able to, to tap into the innate resources That enabled me to be courageous,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: to be present.

Marty: Right,

Bill: and to, to trust myself enough to know that I can take the heat.

Marty: right. Yeah. And so the, there's that stubbornness in solidarity, both that they are in the yellow zone, right.

Bill: Hmm.

Marty: If it gets to feel just too stubborn with no solidarity, if that's the way it feels, then you get to say, no, this is, this is red.

Bill: And so at that point it's time for a reset. Something needs to happen to, to help relax the tension that has built, that makes that red.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And sometimes that means, and this is part of the protocol as well, is that sometimes it means we take a pause no matter what the. The mo even if the momentum has built and we're, we're moving in a direction and oh, it looks like we're making a lot of progress. often, and what's predictable here with parts is that we can only go so far and make so much progress before it's gonna get really uncomfortable for, for some other protector in the system that hasn't maybe been revealed yet,

Marty: Right, right.

Bill: that may come up and block further progress and, um, it feels like a frustration sometimes when that happens. But I think if we reframe what's happening and just recognize, just like me being defensive with my wife in that counselor's office, it's just an, it's indicative of something that, that we didn't previously see. It's, it's exposing the blind spot and it's an opportunity to address that.

Marty: It also occurs to me, I don't, I'd be curious what you have to say about this, that, you know, sometimes in, in relationships and conversations, um. And I think more often in men than women, but don't hold me to that. Uh, we just go, we turn off. Like instead of getting, you know, heated, we just like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm basically not here. I'm sitting here, but I'm not really participating anymore.

Bill: all had that experience. I've had that experience both as the one that shuts down

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: And it is a, it's a conversation ender.

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: it could be a relationship ender, but, but it is, it's there as another protective mechanism.

Marty: exactly.

Bill: Whatever part has influenced us to shut down, has a lot of information for us. And interestingly, if we can turn toward the one that shut us down and bring interest to that

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: to understand it and appreciate what it's trying to accomplish by shutting down whole thing can get moving again or not. But the main thing is that it's an opportunity to get to know one more part. and when that happens, there is more access to resources and things do get to move. Moving again, we need to wrap up. I'm, I'm no noticing the clock.

Marty: Oh gosh.

Bill: Can we,

Marty: flies.

Bill: well in these great conversations? It really does.

Marty: Today we talked about a couple of really tense. Conversations, and that can be had either between different individuals or between a practitioner and uh, the client's parts.

Bill: That's right, and we talked about the protocol. The reason that came up is because I discovered in an IFS session with clients, with a client that I had skipped ahead in the line and assumed that I had. In, in informed consent and permission to use the IFS model in the coaching session, it became very painfully clear that, that this client and their parks needed better understanding of what I was attempting to do and why I was doing it, that that called on me to create this protocol.

Marty: And the promise. The promise of listening to this episode, if you choose to, is that you'll get to learn this protocol that Bill has invented that makes these conversations doable and healing and enriching.

Bill: I'm not sure if I invented it or not. I, I think maybe I discovered it. I, I know that there are elements of this in that, that book back in Colorado that's on the bookshelf, uh, getting real by Susan Campbell and, and I know that Tony Irvine blank and the protocol, the IFS protocol, which is intimacy from the inside out, she talks about. Um, courageous Conversations. There's a book by the name of Crucial Conversations that touches on a lot of this as well. I'm sure that I'm standing on the shoulders of giants as I, as I tap into all the things that I've learned over the years, uh, at, in building this protocol. So I don't, I want, I don't wanna sound like this, this is a unique thing that, that I just created all on my own. I just found a necessity for it and, and, uh, it feels like I've been getting a bit of a download the last week or so in terms of how to answer. Uh, the challenges that I'm, that I have encountered with clients, not just recently, but all along the way and have been kind of tripping over and getting through. But the, but I'm, my hope is, and frankly I've been using this protocol over the last week and it's working really well, that it, that it really makes it feel a lot safer for people to have these, these really difficult, challenging conversations with other people and with their parts.

Marty: I just wanted to acknowledge you for taking the download and simmering it down to something very useful and effective for us.

Bill: Oh, thank you. Thank you. And more will be revealed here. I, I will continue to work on the protocol as I learn from my clients and my own life. So thanks for listening. Talk to you next time. Thanks, Marty.