You’re In Your Head

Marty: Welcome, welcome, welcome. I'm here with, of course, my cohort in this, um. Uh, bill Tierney, who is a results based, compassionate results based coach,

Bill: Compassion compassionate results coach. Yeah.

Marty: which is lovely. I mean, like, that really gets at it all.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: you coach the whole human being.

Bill: Yeah. People that are, are wanting some help getting some results that they have been able to get.

Marty: And this relates to our topic today too, by the way. I'm Martin Kettle Hut, I, I coach entrepreneurs and executives and in whatever they bring, you know, it's usually about making more money or, you know, communicating better or managing their time. Uh, that this precious coin of that we have called life and the short time that that is, but. of the things that is coming up for both Bill and me and we want to discuss in the podcast today is this, this criticism that sometimes you hear people, um, uh, file against each other, uh, that you are in your head.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: You're not, you're, you're, you're doing something over there that it feels like there's some separation. You are in your mind and not relating directly to what's here and

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: and Oh, so we wanna look at both. The, the validity of that observation and also how it might also miss some important things sometimes, or discredit an intellectual, um, approach when there's nothing wrong there. So do we get into this bill?

Bill: Well, just as you introduced the topic by, by the way, it's December 31st, 2025. In case anybody's wondering which year we're getting ready to turn over into, into the next 1, 20 26 tomorrow, uh, um, what, I guess as I was listening, what I, what, what occurred to me was if I'm hearing someone start a statement with YOU, my defense has come up. There

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: are parts of me that want to defend me and, um,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: because what's coming is a judgment. You are, you do, you don't, you should. These are all judgments. And, and so the first thing that pops into my mind is that, that if there's something to say about the way someone else is showing up, what what's really useful for me is if someone tells me. How they're impacted by, by how I'm being

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: someone. When someone says to me, you're too much in your head, and I've gotten that in my life. In fact, I just got it yesterday. Um, I, I do, I feel defensive and I wonder what, what they really are pointing at. What is, what is the experience that they're having that has them end up soliciting that kind of a judgment that I didn't ask for?

Marty: Yeah, so I've had this criticism, if we can call it that judgment I think is good. Better. Not just once or twice in my life. Right,

Bill: Yeah, you've heard it. Me. Me too. Me too.

Marty: right. And, um, I am, the way it was explained to me, one of the most important, when I was actually being coached on it, not just, you know, uh, some, some other unimportant person to me say, oh, you're in your head. Um. They were having the experience of not connecting with me.

Bill: There we go. I, I think that's probably Mo I'm gonna guess that that's something like that. You're not present. I don't feel like you're here. It seems like your, your mind has wondered somewhere else and that you're not, you're not actually here

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: that. Yeah, that's, that comes a little bit closer to having me want to reflect, to take a look at it

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and, and, and really acknowledge whether or not that's valid.

Marty: Right.

Bill: I might not even be aware. That might be a real gift to hear from someone. Yeah. I, I, um, I'm, I'm wondering if you're present something like that, because it seems like your mind's off somewhere else.

Marty: Well, I love, I love that you put it that way, bill, because, um, I mean, isn't this one of the principles of nonviolent communication? You don't, you don't criticize what the person is doing. You let them know how it's affecting you.

Bill: Right. Yes. I love, I love that part of it where Marshall Rosenberg, the creator and author of Nonviolent Communication is giving examples of, for, for example, it might be, I'm making up over here, that you are in your head traveling somewhere else other than right here. Is that what's going on?

Marty: Right, right. And then you can say, oh, no, no, no. Um, or, yeah, I guess you're right.

Bill: Yeah, I'm, I'm left at five minutes. Yeah. A lot of times my answer would, would probably sound like, yes, I'm still five at five minutes ago. I should, sorry, I should have spoken up. As soon as you talked about that one thing and then changed the subject, I stayed with that one thing. So, yeah, you're, you're perceiving accurately that I'm no longer with you. I am, I'm still really interested in the thing we were talking about five minutes ago.

Marty: That's great. And here's another one very closely related. Um, this happened to me with a friend the other day. I had an agenda because we had a very s short amount of time. I even had it written down on a piece of paper. These are the five points we need to discuss in the next 15 minutes. And, um, his, his mind was like, he got stuck on something in there,

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: And we both were like critical of each other. You're you're not talking to me. I'm not talking to you. You're not talking. I'm, but we were both like, wait, what's not working here? And we are

Bill: And,

Marty: little critical in that

Bill: and, and blaming each other for what's not working.

Marty: That's right. So, and then when, when we stopped and slowed it down, it's like. He really did need an, an answer to his agenda issue before he could move on

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: my agenda,

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: right? And vice versa. He needed me to recognize that I was pushing an agenda and you know, that we, if we didn't finish this in this 15 minutes, we could definitely do it another time.

Bill: Right.

Marty: So we both had agendas. So I think there's also that phenomenon. It's not necessarily mutual. It could be one side as an agenda, the other doesn't. But you know that that's what's giving them an experience of, wait, wait, you know, I, you're not really communicating with, we're not connecting here, you know?

Bill: Yeah, I think that that's probably what, anytime I've gotten that feedback, that's probably what it's about that, that I'm no longer present and they notice that. And it's probably accurate a, a good portion of the time.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: There's also, um, like a, a value hierarchy around being in your head as not being as valuable as being in your body or in your heart. And that comes up a lot too, especially in personal development conversations,

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I mean the, we need all three body, mind, heart,

Bill: right.

Marty: um, interdependent. Like they're all valid, valid and valuable. There might be times when one is more, you know, important to be you've invoked than the other. You

Bill: Mm-hmm. Right?

Marty: I'm speaking to your heart and you're analyzing what I'm saying. Come on,

Bill: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Which upon investigation or exploration might reveal that. An escape to the head and into thinking when, when it's a matter of the heart, when, when one person is speaking from, from emotions and from heart and the other person's analyzing, the person that's analyzing may very well be defending in some way. There must be, there may be something about that emotion that feels, let's just say, for example, dangerous and that escaping into the head and, and becoming analytical. Um, can create a real disconnect and, and I can, I can easily imagine and how justified it would be to have the other person feel a complaint about that.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Or an expectation. I remember a conversation with my cousin about our last trip did together, and she had an expectation that I was going to pick her up and drop her off from the airport. And that wasn't the way the, you know, and so that was this moment when, you know, I realized, oh, she's in her head because she's. Has this expectation and I'm not speaking to it. And so she's lost. You know?

Bill: Yeah, so it sounds like this conversation is really about presence and connection

Marty: I think that's right.

Bill: and that in the different context where one might be. Might where it might be pointed out that someone's in their head that, that, that underneath that is the awareness at some level of, of a disconnection.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: does that shed any light? Uh, you don't need to necessarily go into this, but I'm just curious on the conversation that you had yesterday.

Bill: I, I believe so. I, I think when, when I go into my intellect and to figure things out or to project or try to understand or make sense of something, I'm no longer with whatever that is that I'm trying to make sense of.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: taken, taken as much information. As I have, and I'm trying to run it through a calculator in my mind to project what it all means or what I can expect to have happen. And for me, the thing yesterday was that I wanted to be able to have, it's, um, I wanted to be able to be more receptive to spiritual messages and the person that I was talking to indicated that I, that as long as I had skepticism, as long as I was in my head.

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: Wondering whether or not the information I was getting was valid or coming from who I thought it was coming from, or wanted it to come from, that it didn't work that way and that it wasn't gonna, it wasn't in fact going to work that I somehow needed to get outta my head and, and have a different experience, probably one that I'm not even aware of, probably experience that I've not even had before, which left me feeling frustrated and powerless.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: But I can see, I can see that if, if I'm trying to figure out how to be spiritual, just how to connect with spirit, spirit spirits, that, that, the intellect that is employed to figure that out, it's not gonna be able to travel that far. That, that it's gonna come up short. So I can see that.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, but, but, but I think more importantly for us to talk about. our audience here is, um, when, when you want to give somebody that information connected to them,

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: how to go about that so that they don't get even more in their head, you know,

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: you criticize them and triggered them.

Bill: Right, right. Well, it, it might be recognizing the unmet need, and that goes back to the nonviolent communication again.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Uh, where they talk about what is the unmet need. If there is a disconnection, it may be because there's an unmet need that hasn't been acknowledged. So slowing down and, and when I, I'm thinking of, um, this past weekend when I was hanging out with my son and my grandsons, um, and there were moments of disconnection that where I would've liked to have more connection

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and it felt awkward. Uh, when o other times, most of the time, in fact, it was, it just really flowed. It was very nice, but there were awkward moments when, and I just chalked it up to, you know, I'm intruding in their lives. This isn't, you know, inserting myself in their lives over the weekend has them having to accommodate me in ways that, that they don't know how to, how to do gracefully. And, uh, how to include me. So, so, um, I, I was very clumsy with it. I didn't do, I don't know that I did a very good job of, of communicating what it was that I didn't slow down and ask myself what is the unmet need that I have here? And, uh, if I slowed it down right now, I could see pretty quickly that the need was, I wanted connection. I'd made the trip over there, six hour drive to get there. And, uh, wanted to be able to, to really have, have connection with all of them. Uh, and when, when I, when I, what I was getting was a smokescreen, for example,

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: my grandsons or, um, you know, that they were distracted or that they just wanted something from me rather than other than connection, like money or buying them something, something. Then I noticed that I suffered a little bit over that like, like I had a lot of thinking around what should and shouldn't be. Um. What I didn't do is slow down and ask myself what is my unmet need?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: had I done that, I might've been able to say to my, especially my grandsons, uh, you know, I'd like to, I don't get to see you very often. I'd like to get to know you better. I don't, I'm not here as a cash machine. I'm here. I'm here to, to really get to know you better and understand what your life and have you share with me as much as you can and will, and maybe even, um, uh, tell you about me if you're interested in, in my life.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: so in the absence of that, there was some suffering that was going on.

Marty: Do you still have, um, you, you were coming back from a trip with your wife recently,

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: two months ago.

Bill: In August.

Marty: sorry.

Bill: In August,

Marty: Right. Okay. So a little more than two months, and you had created a set of questions for getting reconnected.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Do you still use those?

Bill: We do.

Marty: be relevant?

Bill: Every week and, and, and, and it's interesting that you bring that up right now because now that you bring it up, that's something else I could have done with my grandsons when, when I was over there,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: uh, to, to ask them what's alive inside right now for you. Now that they're not traveling that road, they're, they're not. Um, my impression is that they're not consciously aware of what they're experiencing inside. They're, they're pretty externally focused.

Marty: all the, all, all the better. Like there's a whole universe there that you could open up for them

Bill: Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: asking that simple question. It, you know, I was talking to a client. I was feeling like we were disconnected. He was rambling. Uh, it felt like, to me about numbers and stuff. It just felt like he was filling the space. And I opened up my, I have a folder called Coach Coaching Materials, and it's full of, you know, little things that I've used, little conversation helpers or, you know, patterns that get at certain stuff. And there was, there was those questions. Bill's questions for how

Bill: Hmm.

Marty: reconnect, and I just, I didn't read them all to him, but I, you know, I just, I, you know, as we're talking, I went, what was the live, what's in live, what's, uh, alive for you inside right now? Wasn't the first question I asked, but there were, and then, and those three questions, it shifted the whole

Bill: Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: He and I then got really connected, so I just wanted you to know they work.

Bill: Oh, good, good. Yeah. And having you point that out to me. Tells me that had I been more, had I been more present and less concerned about getting whatever it was that I was unclear about what I needed and wanted from that experience, I might have, um, engaged him in that way.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Like, what are you, what are you, I might've asked my grandson, what are you feeling right now? What's going on inside? What, what are, where is your mind? What are, what are your concerns, worries, or fears? What's important to you right now in your life? Questions like that.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: And we did have, you know, I did, I did go down that road a little bit. He was telling me about, um, he's 12 and, and apparently in school now everybody gets, um, tablets to, to do, to computers with laptops or tablets to, to do all their work with. And he was showing me how in some classes that he is not very, uh, engaged in. He's figured out how to find games to play to get to. To, to kill the time during, during class. But he also showed me, you know, his grades and I, that opened up conversations about, you know, how is it for you? How is school? Are you struggling? Is it, is it easy? Are you bored? Are you interested? Tell me more.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: to know more. And, and so that was the, the most connection that we had

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: me and the 12-year-old grandson

Marty: Yeah. Great.

Bill: entire time we were there.

Marty: Yeah, I mean, I think that this, so the, there is an example where the value, there was more value in, um, and not being in separate heads. Um, but, but. do wanna, I do wanna give you a chance to say more about, because I think it's, it is important. There are times when we are in our head and it's appropriate and it's good,

Bill: Hmm. Yes.

Marty: you know, or natural even, you know, like endowed with heads. Sometimes we go there.

Bill: With brains, very complex, advanced technology.

Marty: I don't wanna feel bad about the fact that there are times when I am up there, that's where I go sometimes, you

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: and I don't think that's bad. Um, I mean, it would be bad if, you know, I were talking to a client and not really connecting, you know, that that would be bad. Um, a loved one. You know, in certain moments, if I were. Not really present, but, uh, so what is the value and when is it appropriate?

Bill: Well for me, um. I am very, I'm very creative as a here. Uh, here's an example that I gave, uh, in a conversation yesterday. So in my coaching groups, I do, in my TrueU groups, I do a 30 minute coaching spotlight with one of the participants, and that's scheduled and rotated so that everybody gets e equal chance to have that coaching spotlight. Basically. Basically it's a 30 minute coaching session,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: we always, almost always use the IFS model in that coaching session.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: The other participants in the group, and there's up to seven others that are observing. During that 30 minutes, they're asking themselves questions, like noticing what's alive inside for them, what ac, what becomes activated as they're observing,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and then they get an opportunity to report that once that 30 minute spotlight is complete, they got, they get one to two minutes to do that.

Marty: Uh.

Bill: So that leaves out of a 90 minute session that leaves us about 15, 20 minutes. To do a group exercise that is always a journaling exercise. Well, I don't know what that exercise is gonna be until I do the coaching spotlight, and I just trust that once we, once I've done the coaching spotlight, there's gonna be a theme there, especially if I'm, as I'm listening to what other people were experiencing as they listen and, and as they observed the session.

Marty: Yes.

Bill: And what amazes me is that the, the combination of intellect. Intuition and inspiration combines for, for me to be able to improvise and design the exercise on the spot and the exercise a hundred percent of the time so far has been amazing, very powerful. Uh, the whole goal of each one of the exercises is to bring up awareness about, about ourselves, um, based on, based on the theme that that showed up in that coaching spotlight. So. There's a time that my intellects serves me amazingly well. Drawing on past experience, drawing on what I understand about the IFS model and, and, uh, keeping in mind that I've got eight souls there in that group that are looking for me to facilitate a way, a way for them to have more self-awareness, more internal peace.

Marty: It sounds like there's a nice integration of presence as well, you had to be listening to what's going on to come up with that exercise.

Bill: You are right, right. Oh yeah. If I was distracted, if I, and this rarely happens, but occasionally, like an email will pop up or somebody will text me in the middle of a session and, um, there I have a part that wants to see what's, what is that text? Is that, is that so and so? Answering my question from a, from an hour ago, do I, can I sneak a look at that? But, and the, the moment I begin to go in that direction, I'd be, I've become less present

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and I, I know the client is talking or saying something, but I've lost the thread because my, my conscious mind has gone somewhere else. It seems, I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems. This, this kind of goes along the lines of, uh, the, the myth of multitasking that, that we really can only focus consciously on one thing at a time, and.

Marty: I, I believe that myself very strongly. I mean, there are times when I'm doing several things at once, but I'm, my attention is never on all, all of them it's like it goes over here. While, while this, the pasta's boiling, I'm stirring the sauce, but I'm not really multitasking,

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: know, because if I go over there. The sauce could boil over and I'm standing right here.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: it, there's, I think there's truth

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marty: And, you know, the other thing that occurs to me, there are times, there are times when I feel like I, I wanna say to some people sometimes, like think it over, like, go in your head and work this out.

Bill: I see. Yeah, yeah,

Marty: Like you're, you're never in your head. Go in your head. I

Bill: yeah. We be intellectual labor, do the work, right. Think, think it through. And that's a really good point, Marty. I. I've never been accused, other than by my father growing up, of being stupid. Um, but I, there are things that I didn't learn how to do, and that would've required diligence, slowing down, paying attention, studying, and, um, and, and that's, I would've been accurately accused of that, of, of being intellectually lazy, not taking the time to learn something.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: I, there's been so many times that, that once I did take the time, here's a great example. When I was in the grocery business, I was working as a department manager in a store, and the corporate office sent out a computer tech, and his task was to train all of the department heads on, on how to use a couple of programs on the computer. And this is in the early nineties, so it was kind of revolutionary. The computer wasn't very advanced yet. And, and what he had to show us that day was, uh, how to use Microsoft Excel or a program like it called Twin. Um, and when he called me up to the office and said, okay, it's your turn. I'm gonna show you how to use this computer. I said, no, no, thank you very much. I, um. I don't need computers. I don't need he, he said, oh no, you don't understand. This isn't an option. This, the, the corporate office has sent me out to train all the department heads. You're a department head and you wanna remain to be one. You wanna continue to be one. Yes. Okay, well have a seat. I'm gonna show you how to do this, don't worry, you're not gonna break it. And that was my fear. I was gonna break the computer and after about 20 minutes he was showing me how to, I don't think we even had a mouse at that time. Uh, but he was showing me how to enter. Uh, information on a spreadsheet and how to build a formula to have it calculate. And the moment that that happened and I saw that it, that I could make it work, I got excited. I got very, very interested. And then I got, it, got to the point where I was doing anything that I could, using that, that program that he taught me prior to that, I'm just, no way, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna touch it.

Marty: Like people are right now with ai, like, Ooh, how can I use this? Let's you know.

Bill: Yes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: so I love that you bring that up, that, that the, the other, the criticism on the other end of the argument, like you're not in your head enough.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: And honestly, I think that there are people that are probably in their emotions so much that it disables.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: That they need the more of a combination of intellect with those emotions.

Marty: Or image, you know, I'm thinking of certain parties I've been to, like there was no thinking going on. It was all about image, you

Bill: Mm-hmm. Well, what do you think of me? In other words,

Marty: mm-hmm.

Bill: right?

Marty: I

Bill: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. So it's, it's just a matter of balance. It sounds like the, what we've discovered here, or discussed so far is that, that there needs to be a balance. That there's a, there is, there's a time for us to be using our brain, otherwise we wouldn't have one to be thinking things through. We, you know, when we need to plan, uh, if I'm gonna take a trip, uh, I'm, I need to have somewhat of a plan. How am I gonna get there? Am I gonna drive or fly? When am I gonna go? What's the cost gonna be? Where am I gonna stay? What do I need to bring with me to be prepared? What are we gonna do while we get there? All of that requires planning. That requires me being in my head,

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: And if I'm remiss and I just think, oh, I'll go, I don't know. I think maybe I'll go to Seattle. Maybe I'll go Friday. Maybe I'll go Thursday. I don't know what I'm gonna bring. I don't know how long I'm gonna stay. If there's no plan,

Marty: Right.

Bill: it might be, it might be great, but, but if I wanna.

Marty: Sometimes, yeah. But, but it depends, the, the more it involves. You know, coordinating with the people or, or with the car that's gonna need gas or whatever. Like the more coordination required, the less, you know, um, you can do that. Um, but, I think it's also, it's bringing up for me like this, Because you, just like the, keep maintaining the balance, like you said. Um. to that effect a minute ago. Like there, there we, we are both, we need both. just being, like ready to tip. Like if you are with somebody, you realize like, oh, I'm over. I'm really up here. I'm not with them. That you can just easily, you know, shift and vice versa. You know, like, oh wait, I, you know, I need to think that through. Hang on, hang on, let me think this over. Okay. And then, you know, so I think. It's like just staying a stride of that because they are, they are very different aspects of human being.

Bill: As you're saying that, yes, as you're saying that, I like the comment, I need to think this over. There are times when I'm, when I'm pressed for it to make a decision,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: if I just give into the pressure to make a decision and ignore what I feel, which is that, let's just say some, something inside tells me there's, there's more to be considered. I haven't, I, I'm not clear. I'm, I'm still conflicted about it.

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: Um, and I have in my life made decisions because I felt pressured to do so when I wasn't quite ready to make that decision.

Marty: I hate that.

Bill: Yeah, buying a car, choosing a particular house, I mean, big things, big things.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: Even getting into relationships felt pressured to, to do. So.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: This turned out great, but in my second marriage, my wife asked me to, to get a vasectomy, reversal. And that's a huge decision.

Marty: To do what?

Bill: Get a vasectomy reversal so that we could have a baby together.

Marty: Oh, wow.

Bill: Yeah, unexpectedly. My first wife died and I'd had a vasectomy. We had enough kids, uh, so I didn't expect that I'd be getting married again. So once I got married again, my second wife, after we'd gotten married, asked me if, if I would get a reversal. And was, you know, coming with a lot of emotion about me, even hesitating to do so. Uh, so I felt a lot of pressure to have that reversal. And like I said, it turned out great. I ended up having a daughter as a result of, of the, of the giving in to the pressure to have the reversal. Um,

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: and, uh, so I can't say that that was a mistake, but I, it cert I didn't feel good about the decision. I, I only felt the relief of no longer feeling pressured. To do. To do what she wanted me to do.

Marty: Mm-hmm. I mean, I, I'm also noticing as we're talking about this that there are some people in my life who are very in their head and they're, I can see now, I hadn't noticed this before. They're becoming more and more isolated,

Bill: Yep.

Marty: like since we graduated from college together. Doesn't eat like other people, doesn't have much of a social life, you know, has a very special job situation where he doesn't have to interact with people, but gets paid. You know? And like I'm just noticing like, wow, my friend Don, he's getting, you know, it's, it's affecting his life. Um.

Bill: So.

Marty: one of the things we were talking about before we, we pressed record, was how I got coaching early on in, in my career that I was in my head

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: and, and I, I, I valued that coaching. I still use that coaching because, although there are times when it's, you know, I, I, I will go off for a week be in my head The effectiveness of my coaching doesn't come from that. It comes from my being present.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Right, right. Being.

Marty: you know, I think you can also begin to see in people's, I mean, I noticed this. When I listen to different people in meetings like that, I can, you can just tell that person spends all their time in their head. You can hear it,

Bill: Mm. Mm-hmm. What that, what would that sound like? How would you, how could you hear that?

Marty: Well, I didn't wanna go out because I was afraid that people would this and, and

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: spent the whole day, you know, just trying to figure out how, where to put this painting on the wall and like this kind of thing.

Bill: I see. So, yeah, so, so storytelling, analyzing, using, using the mind to try to resolve internal conflict.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: the mind to protect from a perceived threat.

Marty: Yeah. So back to back to the observation, like these are all important parts of it. Our body is also. You know, we haven't spoken that much about it, but like, it needs its own kind of attention that isn't thinking and, isn't spirit, and isn't, you know, it's just your body. You gotta look at it and treat it as your bo. So these are different ways that we experience life as a human being and they, all important. None of them are bad. And so just like, know, aware that you're sitting on all of the eggs, you're keeping 'em all warm and not just one of them.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well said. Yeah. And mentioning your body, what a great and relatively easy way to get present if you're having trouble staying there.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: By just focusing on, on the body, what am I experiencing physically right now? Well, unless I'm holding my breath, I can count on it and even then I can focus on the experience of holding my breath. But focusing on the experience of breath will 100% of the time has always helped me to become present

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: it becomes automatic again, and as soon as breath becomes automatic again, and I forget to be involved in it. Simply by observing it, then my mind goes off somewhere else. I've got a very, very busy mind, so I don't have any argument with the person that told me that I'm often in my head. It's true. I absolutely am very, very busy mind, and, and sometimes I'm, I'm that busy mind is reflecting present current reality.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. It's just a matter of it Okay and, and bringing it into the present. Bringing it into the present. Like, okay, what are you thinking about? What's going on? What's, you know,

Bill: Right.

Marty: I, and, but you, I, I just wanna. Acknowledge that. Another thing that I'm taking away from this conversation, 'cause sometimes I will call out a client, it happened the other day. A client, I could see that, I don't know if you can, like,

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: bouncing his leg and it was moving his body. And I was like, dude, what are you thinking about? He's like, how do you know I'm thinking about something? I said, 'cause your body is showing it to me. And he's like, wow, you're right. He said, I'm really worried about this coaching assignment. I asked him to go have a certain conversation with the wife and he was, that's when it started. He's, he's like, oh my God, how am I gonna do that?

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: So that was, that went okay. But I wanna, I wanna really take in this, this part of the conversation about how to approach people who are in their head because you don't wanna, like, scare them or insult them,

Bill: Right.

Marty: Another one happened very recently. I was asking a client if she could do something. Take an action based on our coaching within an within an hour after the call

Bill: Yes.

Marty: get back to me. And, and I, I saw her doing this as I was saying, that just scratching the hell out of her own thumb. I'm like, maybe it doesn't have to happen in the first hour after we came up. I see that that instigated some. Something in you. And she said, how did you know that? I said, well, look at your thumb. And she, oh yeah, I scratched the hell outta my thumb just now, didn't I? So we do, we do this, and I, I just wanna, I wanna be a little gentler, a little more nonviolent about the way I bring it up, because I think it's important to point out to people. At times, sometimes not of course, you know, just let 'em be. Um, but when it is, you know, to bring it up in a gentle, constructive way.

Bill: So yesterday morning I had, this is, I believe an example of that. Yesterday morning I had a an IFS session with a practitioner, and I brought, I, I think I mentioned that same session yesterday when we recorded the other episode. but there were times throughout the session that she'd said, okay, she'd ask me, so what are you experiencing right now?

Marty: As you that

Bill: She asked me the question.

Marty: right. Your being coach. Right. Okay.

Bill: That's right. Yeah. So what are you experiencing right now? And I so appreciated the question because during an IFS session, what I choose to do as a client is close my eyes, minimize external, uh, distraction, and, and really bring a lot of attention to what I'm experiencing internally.

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: There are visuals that I'll experience. There are. Physical sensations that I'll experience. There are thoughts that will want to just play with, with whatever idea that has just been presented.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and so when she would ask, there's always an answer. There was always something going on that, that in that moment had my attention.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: another way she could have asked the question would, I'm not saying it would've been a better way, I'm just saying a way she could have asked the question would've been. Where is your mind right now? What are you experiencing in your body right now? What emotions are you noticing, if any? Uh, are you feeling any kind of an impulse that you're resisting?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Uh, anything like, so anything like that is a, is a report, and that would have to come from awareness. That could only happen in presence. And as I re would report it, it just, uh, it was really very nice to be, it almost felt indulgent to be able to say, well, this is where my mind's going right now.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And then we would, we would see if any that needed any more attention and then come back to presence again. Uh, that there's something about that that was really valuable to me.

Marty: Yeah. Well, it also, to me, it goes to show like that it takes a village, it takes a com. my listening book I call the internal committee. This is before I knew anything about IFS, that I called it that in my

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: But like that there are, there are parts of it that, of us, that are better at figuring stuff out. Parts of us that are better at, you know, receiving emotion like that. We have d and, and it takes all of them, you know,

Bill: That's right.

Marty: of them.

Bill: Speaking of the committee, the name popped into my head just now. When I was early in sobriety, this would've been in the 1980s. Um. There was a, a speaker for aa. His name was Bob Earl, and he talked about the committee a lot back then.

Marty: Huh.

Bill: Yeah. And, and it was very well received. He was a very popular

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: outta California and he, uh. I think he was popular because he, he broke all conventions. He used a lot of profanity as he was speaking. And, and, uh, and anywhere he went as a, as a speaker for aa, he was, it would be sold out. I mean, not that they'd, they'd sell tickets to, but, but it would be a packed house.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And, uh, and I used to listen to cassette tapes of him talking and he's very, very funny. Uh, but talked about the committee. Well, at that time, people didn't know about parts. In fact, Dick Schwartz was just learning about parts himself about that same time. And um, uh, so it was a way for me and, and for others who I was in recovery with to begin to think of in terms of, and just really notice there's a lot of lot going on up here. There's often a lot going on up here that's not of our accord that that's happening, like automatically something for us to notice. It's like. And Byron Katie helped me with this too. She would, she would use some strange language. She would say, I'm having a thought rather than I'm thinking.

Marty: Uh.

Bill: And when, when, and I thought, I thought, well, why does she, why does she insist on saying it that way? And then finally, I understood what she's saying is she's noticing a thought or she's having a thought because that actually is reflecting what's what she's experiencing

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: to take ownership of it.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: can be very confusing. Why would I be thinking that thought?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Whereas I'm noticing that I'm having a thought, loosens it up a little bit and, and relieves you of the pressure or the responsibility of having that thought in the first place.

Marty: Yeah. I mean, it takes it out of identifying with the thought.

Bill: Yes.

Marty: Like I, I have a lamp on this table, but I'm not the lamp. I have a thought going through my head, but I'm not that thought.

Bill: I'm, or I'm noticing, I'm noticing a thought, but I'm not the thought. Right, right. Yeah. She was the one.

Marty: think that, I think that when you've coached me. And I, you know, I, I usually close my eyes too. What I've noticed, I've never told you this, but, and maybe it's obvious to you as a practitioner, but I usually, that that space that you were describing, where you can, where you know, you can be more aware of what you're thinking

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: are closed and you're

Bill: Mm.

Marty: What I notice is that my first thought I always discounted.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: realized in IFS, it's been, it's been good for me to see like, oh wait, the one we need to talk about.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: Forget about all those others that you could generate. The first one that came up, that's the one that, that's the one right.

Bill: Yeah. In fact, you mentioned that yesterday and you said that you'll, you'll write that down when you hear the first thing you hear from a person, you'll write that down, and often that it ends up being the key to the, the, to the session.

Marty: That's right.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: That's right. Yeah.

Bill: Well, Marty, can we begin to wrap up a little bit by summarizing what have we talked about here today?

Marty: I don't know. What did we talk about?

Bill: Well, we started out with the theme. Um, if we had a name for it, it would be being in your head

Marty: Yep.

Bill: and, and how? I believe the first thing that we, we explored was how, how does, how does that land If you hear someone pointing out to you that you're in your head too much, how does that land? And I, and I mentioned that, you know, I get defensive. And, um, inter what's interesting now as I reflect back on that earlier part of the conversation is that later we talked about how it's a matter of connection and disconnection, presence and absence. And, uh, the person that would point out, I think you're in your head too much, really more if they were, uh, describing their own experience rather than their explanation for why they're having their experience, they would say. I'm feeling, I'm not feeling the connection with you that I'd like to have. Where, where did you go? Where are you?

Marty: yes.

Bill: I'm telling the story that you're in your head right now. Is that what's going on? Yeah,

Marty: Mm-hmm. Good, good. Yeah.

Bill: so that was interesting. We, we went through some Marshall Rosenberg non-violent communication, a couple of things like the one I just mentioned.

Marty: Right. Exactly how to, how to approach it when you notice that about somebody else. Yeah. And how to receive it

Bill: Hmm. Hmm.

Marty: points it out to you.

Bill: We talked a few, uh, uh, about a few things, uh, methods, I suppose, for how to come back to presence,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: like asking another nonviolent communication question, what's alive inside. Uh,

Marty: Right. And we, and we validated all these different aspects

Bill: I.

Marty: mind, body, um, that we are as human beings. And that, you know, we want, you wanna keep them all in, in, um. Integrated and, and not like fall off the deep end into one and forget about, you

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: the taking care of your body while you're thinking of about things, for example,

Bill: Right, right. So being in your head, not in innately a a bad thing, inherently a bad thing is what I meant to say.

Marty: right.

Bill: Uh, but can be problematic when being in your head, thinking about something from the past or the future, or trying to figure something out and not being in the present moment when there's, when there's a, and you're missing what's happening in front of you. That can be problematic.

Marty: Like my

Bill: I.

Marty: you know, with the agenda expectation we're, we're, I was gonna pick her up at the airport and just not getting the, the scenario that I was talking about.

Bill: All right. Another enjoyable conversation, Marty. Happy New Year.

Marty: Happy New Year to you too,

Bill: You go out partying tonight?

Marty: Well, as I do every New Year's Eve, I will be chanting with my fellow

Bill: Oh yeah. I will be asleep. We usually get to bed and sleep by 10 o'clock. So, uh

Marty: that I hope to be in bed by tennis.

Bill: mm-hmm. So when,

Marty: We have a big, a big event tomorrow morning, a big talk from our teacher, so I have to be up early for that.

Bill: when in the central time zone, uh, people are celebrating New Year's celebrating and doing whatever they do, we'll be sleeping. No, we'll be, we'll be falling asleep, so. Thank you. All right.