Why Meditate?

Bill: Welcome to the True You Podcast. Today we have a new experience. Marty and I last week talked about, actually there's a couple weeks we talked about using meditation as the topic, and I wasn't aware that Marty was going to prepare a presentation today during this meditation, and as it turns out, it ended up being a wonderful, wonderful conversation once I just relaxed into what he had to offer. So. Marty, what do you wanna say about this?

Marty: So expect as you listen to this episode coming up that I'm going to, I'm gonna talk about it at first a little bit and, and that will meld into a little bit of trying it out. And then Bill and I are gonna have a conversation about it all.

Bill: And I just notice, and you'll notice this too, that for me anyhow, you'll notice that my voice gets animated. You'll begin to hear my voice entered a bit and might be interesting if, if you're gonna listen through the entire episode that you notice that I start out. A little cautiously in trying to enter into the conversation after listening to Marty's presentation. And then once I find some, some ground to relate my own experience and the courage to admit that I struggle with meditation, the conversation gets quite lively. So I hope you'll listen and join us and we'd love to hear from you and how this landed for you. Enjoy the episode . Welcome to the True You Podcast. I'm Bill Tierney, a compassionate results coach, and this is my partner, Dr. Martin Kettle Hut. Marty Marty's an author, he's a, a coach, and he's having fun today, he said. Mm-hmm.

Marty: Yes, I.

Bill: Yeah, so welcome Marty. Today we're gonna be talking about meditation and, and between the two of us, Marty would be the expert in that area. So it might feel and sound a little bit like an interview today, although I think you have some things in mind, Marty, that might benefit the listener in the way of experience.

Marty: Um, yes. Well, and I'm glad that you said that. do not consider, I mean. I do not consider myself an expert in meditation. I have been meditating an hour a day since October of 1998, and so I, I do have some experience, but

Bill: Well, wait, wait, wait. Slow down. What? That's 27 years, every single day for an hour of meditation. That's, that's really incredible.

Marty: Well, I'm a very disciplined person. It's one of the things that I, and sometimes I'm too disciplined. Um, but my point here is that there's an, there's a, there's a whole galaxy inside of us to explore, and so I don't feel like I've like an expert in meditation but I'm happy to share what I've

Bill: I'd love to hear that. And, uh, if you don't mind, I want to, when questions come up, uh, and the flow allows it, I'd like to be able to ask you some questions about your experience. Is that all right?

Marty: Absolutely. So let's first just, why would one, meditate, why would you wanna do that?

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: the point? Right. Especially in this busy world of ours, and it really just, it boils down to this. We meditate to recognize who we are. So it's a very appropriate topic for the True

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: Now, there are lots of misconceptions about meditation. Some people think that you have to be on a mountaintop or in a silent chamber somewhere where you're not gonna be disturbed in order to meditate. and the truth is you can meditate while you're driving. You don't have to have your eyes closed to be meditating. Um, and it will make you a better driver, um, just to take an extreme example that someone you probably wouldn't have thought of, but you can meditate in a meeting at work and, and get more out of that meeting. And if you were thinking about everything everybody was saying and then you wanna say another misconception about meditation. Is that it's about the same as going for a run or listening to a good piece of music or even taking a nap. Those are all beneficial things to do for sure. But in, in, as we will, as I'm gonna show in in a minute, the core piece of meditation is, um, To allow the mind to relax and be focused on just one thing if possible, uh, as much as possible. And that's what provides the results, which again, I'm gonna talk about more, but, um. You know, these are, those are all great other activities, but they don't bring the same, um, level of focus and, and, and they don't allow that. Letting the mind to relax as much, you know, in, in listening to a piece of music is a great thing to do, but. Most music is meant for you to focus on what's going on there and maybe even get your body moving to it, that's great, not meditation I want. And one last misconception I want to clean up right away is that people think that you have to stop thinking that that's what you're trying to do is to get to the point where you, you're not thinking. So that will happen, but it's not the point. Um, and if that's what you're trying to do, you will never be meditating because I think it's better to start with the assumption that the mind never stops and you can still meditate. Because as soon as you get into that, you, it's, it is like trying not to think. like, don't think about a pink elephant right now. You can't help but picture a pink elephant. It's the same thing. If you try and stop thinking all together, you, you're gonna constantly be thinking. So you will get to a point where a while thought does cease and it feels great and it, and it opens up. Um, insights, but not really what we're at. That's not the point. If you're trying to do that, you won't get to meditation. Um, so even think about it, even while you're sleeping, you don't stop thinking, right. Um, thinking does relax and it moves out of the center of your focus. Like your mind is still going, but as long as you're not identified with that content of the mind, like, yeah, I've got stuff in my mind, but that's not me. Um, I have thoughts and I'm not being them. That's meditation right there. That's the crux of it right there. So, um. Like you, you've heard of, many people have heard of mindfulness exercises, like you can walk mindfully and it's, it slows you down really fast because when you start to really pay attention to the f foot hitting the ground and rolling forward and lifting and the other one as well, there's a lot to notice. The texture of the ground, the feel of the inside of the shoe, which muscles move when. Right. There's a lot to be mindful of and or, you know, making tea like the famous Japanese tea ceremony, The point is to be so focused on this act of making tea that you're having thoughts, but you're, you're not tending to them. They're just there on their own for a while. So when I say identify with your thinking, probably is an odd way to say that's not the way we talk. What do I mean by that? Well, we example is like you say, I'm a man or I'm tired. Or I'm a Democrat,

Bill: angry.

Marty: am. That thing that I'm

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: that's an obvious example. But then there are less obvious Like when somebody says, I don't like your sweater, and you get all offended like it. They're talking about you. They're talking about their and sweaters. It has nothing to do with you. But we get identified with that thought, right. uh, I spent a lot of time as a boy identifying with my thoughts in the sense that I, I needed approval. I needed to be appreciated. I needed to be acknowledged. And, uh, if not, then who am I? See there's that identification with, um, the, the thinking. What I meditate, what we actually explore in meditation is just, I am just, I'm, I am. I know that I am and letting go of all those thoughts about being right. Just if I just am just, just focus on that, like wow, and, and explore that. What, what is it to be alive? What is it to be with no predicate on the end? To be what? Just to be, so this gets back to something we were talking about last week, about the difference between selfish and selfless. identify with your mind or your body and your as, let's say, let's say, to volunteer at the food bank, if you're a mind or a body, you'd consider, well, I, I don't know. Do I have time? Is that convenient? Right. These things about what you're gonna have to do with your mind and your body? the perspective is on this, I relatable. Part of my being. there are limited resources like your mind and your body only extends so far. Can only hold so much, right? That capacity question we talked about

Bill: Right. Mm-hmm.

Marty: And so you're gonna have, naturally, gonna have fears. About losing that identity. Am I safe doing that? Will they like me if I do that? Do I have what it takes to do that? Whatever that is. Right? But if instead you identify, I'm just gonna use an analogy here, um, like water in the ocean. Right. This ocean of humanity that we are, if you could think of it that way, like it's a big, thing that, that we're all participating in this human experiment or the, the human evolution, right? If you identify with that, the self, that is all that we, that we're all a part of, then you see a wider and deeper on and. Yourself and others. And in that there's more, there's more awareness, there's more compassion, more intelligence, more power as well. 'cause you're connected to something that's infinitely greater than yourself. So let's actually, let's experiment with

Bill: Yeah, sounds good.

Marty: So. you're driving, then, then you just keep your eyes open and follow the instructions. And if you're not, you might wanna close your eyes because by eliminating all of that information of the sense of sight, it's easier, it's easier to focus on everything else that's that's going on. But you can, you can definitely meditate with your eyes, open it. It's harder, but you can do it. So first of all, get in touch. Begin to notice what you're and smelling and hearing. Just, just become aware, like you, you've, you've been in those clothes all day, but now feel what it's like to be wearing those clothes . you're breathing this air in this room. Or in your car, but take a moment to smell it and notice its temperature and the subtle way it plays against your exposed skin. Taste, the taste in your mouth, like is, is lunch still there a little bit. Just notice, no judgment, just we're just noticing the sensual world we're a part of. You might notice tension in your body too. You know places where your your don't need to be using your muscles and you could let them go right now. This stage of the meditation is about, leaving the mind to the side and just noticing the physical environment that, that our senses bring to us. And you might notice the more you focus on those sensual, that sensual data. That you are thinking less about what you have to do tomorrow, what happened yesterday. more that your focus is here in the present moment the sensual, the less you can think. It's just, that's the, that's the way we're made. Now, notice the part of you that's observing these stimuli. Like the, the feel of the floor under your feet. That, that it's, not the part that stimulated, it's the part that registers oh, cold air. Right? Your, your hand might feel that, but the mind registers it. And though you can turn your wear to the sensual stimuli as they come and they go, you can't see TA's touch or smell or hear your of those stimuli. Right. That's a different, that's a different part of you. The part of you that registers the information. So just notice, okay. Yeah, there's the stimuli hitting my foot and then there's the thought. I can feel my foot. I, so now shift your attention to those thoughts. Whatever thoughts are there. They could be about the sensual experience you're having, or they could be, you know, thoughts that are still left over from your day so far. Just notice what's in your mind. Like, like, like you were looking at the, you know, the words on a chalkboard. Oh yeah, I have this thought. Yes, I'm thinking about that. So just see the contents of your own mind. And again, although you are aware of these thoughts, the awareness of them is something other than the thought, right? You're, you're, oh, I, I, I can see that I'm, I'm worried about picking up groceries on the way home that I might forget. Right. That's a thought. But then there's the you that notices that thought, just like the U that notices the stimu stimuli not the the U that is stimulated. There's so that we have three parts of you now. There's the central you, there's the thinking you and there's your awareness.

Bill: Hmm.

Marty: The awareness through all these other things, essential stimuli and thoughts, they all pass through awareness. You're aware of the contents of your mind, but you're not your mind. aware of essential stimuli and you're not, you are not a that essential stimuli. Just take that in and experience that difference between the you that is sensual, the you that is thinking and the you that notices all of this. What is awareness, not an object of the senses or a thought in the mind? What is that? I say, and I'm not alone in this. That's who you are, your awareness, and that's why we meditate.

Bill: To know who you are.

Marty: To know who you are, your awareness. Mm-hmm. To be aware. To be yourself.

Bill: Thank you Marty. And I'm wondering, are you, you open to have a discussion about this now?

Marty: Of course, that's what.

Bill: Well thanks for being so prepared and presenting all that. I was, I was interested as you began. I wasn't aware that you had prepared a presentation as you did and, um, a couple times I was gonna jump in. Then I realized I had a sense, oh, he's, he's actually got, got a presentation to, to complete. Here he is, got ideas he wants to share. So I held back and, um, and I'm wondering if it would make, uh, would be possible for you to go back to the first few points that you made. 'cause each one of them, a, a few of them really prompted my curiosity and interest to, to ask you about.

Marty: And just for the, for future, I, I appreciate your, your kindness and your politeness, uh, in not, um, interrupting me with your comments. But in the future, feel free to interrupt. You know, if I, if I have something prepared, you can

Bill: Okay. Alright. Well, we just haven't, I don't think we've had that experience before. I, I don't think that we've come into an episode where you had something prepared to present.

Marty: I know I wanted to be prepared today.

Bill: I knew that you had notes. Yeah. Uh, so great, great. I hope that listener got value from, from that. Um, yeah. So I, you and I worked together for just a little bit. I asked you to help me. This has been at least a couple of years ago, uh, with Nora. Uh, we were work you, you worked with Nora and you were working with me. 'cause you made an offer to us that you would help us to begin to practice meditating. And I found it very difficult to do. I found it very, very difficult, and I'm just, I'm just noticing that I've, I've, I've often noticed this, that it doesn't seem like my nervous system wants to sit still long enough to do that.

Marty: No, but he does it first. Absolutely.

Bill: Nobody's does.

Marty: Well, it's hasn't been trained. Our nervous systems aren't trained for this. It is a challenge. It's a big challenge. You know, takes a lot of practice. Uh, so I, you know, I've been where you're at, uh, or where you just said you were then,

Bill: Well, it's still true. It's still true today. Uh, an example, uh, I really devoted myself. I think I may have mentioned this to you before, to Dr. Joe Dispenza's programs. And, uh, I can't remember exactly the program that I purchased, the, the course that he, that he provided, that I purchased, but it had me meditating, I wanna say, at least two, sometimes three hours a day. And I stuck with it for a while and I, and I kept hoping that if I would just stick with it and follow the instructions and do what he was suggesting that I do that, that my, that I could train myself into meditating.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: reason that I wanted to meditate was because I was pretty unhappy. I was suffering a lot, and many people that I talked to said, meditate, if you're suffering, meditate.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Um, but I found that meditation created suffering for me. I, I suffered a lot trying to make myself meditate.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: didn't have that experience as much with you, and yet, you know, when we were working together for I think maybe a few weeks, um, it was pleasant. I en I enjoyed it. I, however, um, it, even then my nervous system found it really difficult to sit still and to devote very much time to it. Currently I have the capacity to sit still for five or 10 minutes. And meditate. I just don't have the willingness to,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: so that's my experience. And I, I'm guessing that for listeners that have hung in this long, in, in this, you know, if, if they're like me, they may have had a hard time hanging in this long to the I to listening to ideas about meditation because my mind's really busy, it wants to travel elsewhere. For, for a while there I closed my eyes and was listening to your instruction and I actually started falling asleep. And my mind was no longer paying any attention to what you were saying.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: put, oh, you're falling asleep. Wake up, get, bring your attention back here again. So as I'm sharing all this with you, I'm curious about how all this is landing for you, and if there's a way

Marty: It's,

Bill: if.

Marty: know, I've, I've worked with many people on meditation, both learning from them and teaching meditation, and these are all typ, very

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: and typical. Um, things, that's why I wanted to address this question, like, well, why, why would I bother

Bill: Well, especially when it's so hard. When it's, when it, when it's something. It's not something, it's not, I think I'll go take a nap, as you pointed out. It's not like I'm gonna go for a run even. I'm not gonna go. It's not like I'm gonna go lay down on the, on the ground and close my eyes for 10 minutes or an hour. It is, is conscious focused awareness it sounds like.

Marty: Yes. Mm-hmm. That's right. That's right. Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, uh, there's no, you, you don't, I'm not saying anybody should meditate, right? Or, you know, the, there's something wrong with you because you're having this response. All of this is normal. I think the, the first thing that happens when we, you know, if you, if you do decide it's something that you want, and you've said it isn't, for those listening who feel like, well, maybe there is something for me here. I wanna be, I wanna try it. Um, then you, the first thing to do is to notice what it is about it that doesn't work for your system. Notice that, what is that? Is there something to attend to there so that you could spend more time with yourself? Maybe not, but look and see. I mean, that's in the meditation, right? Meditation is. really what has taught me to meditate more than anybody or any book. It's the practice itself has taught me, you know, I know my mind is gonna do certain things and be very uncomfortable with this practice, and, and so I've, I've learned what that's about and how to tend to it. So that I can, I can just be more at peace again. So there's the, it is going to bring up stuff that it, it always brings up stuff for

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: it's the exact stuff that needs to be brought up for us. To come home, you know, to, to put it in a certain way, to, to, to come home, to self, to come home to who we really are. And that's why, you know, uh, when I first learned we each had a, a tutor. And, uh, there was a class where we were learning about meditation and philosophy that goes with it. And, um, then we went off to practice with our tutor. And the tutor would help with these things, you know, ah, you're, you're. sitting is, you just can't sit. Okay, well then maybe we need different pillows for you, you know, or, uh, you know, to do some stretching exercises so that it doesn't hurt to sit in that way for so long. You, and we attend to those things so that you, you know, the path opens up for you, um, to meditate if that's something you want. Nobody needs to.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah, choice is a huge factor when it comes to meditation and, and my resistance when I, when I don't feel like I have a choice, definitely gets in the way. the first time I felt like I should meditate was when I was trying, when I was going through the 12 steps of 12 step program, which, and as you know, the 11th step is, uh, sat through prayer meditation to improve our conscious contact with God. Uh, and

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: have that right? It's,

Marty: that's

Bill: yeah. And, and so, gosh, I didn't, I didn't know what meditation was or how to do it. And I was at odds with God and church and religion and prayer. So this was a big, big challenge for me.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: um, and one that I, that I, what I actually settled for and called meditation was, uh, more con, direct, intentional contemplation, cons,

Marty: That's

Bill: consideration of. In a, in a very structured way, and that I not only can do, but really benefit from. In fact, when a moment ago you were talking about, um, what it, what it's like to meditate, it sounded like you were describing the process of noticing inside the influence of my parts and getting curious about that.

Marty: If you are noticing the influence of your parts, you are meditating.

Bill: Whew. Well, I guess I love meditating then.

Marty: Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I had a friend who said, I don't like to meditate, but like on a beautiful, clear fall day like this, when the sun is coming in and the air is clear, I like to just sit right in the sun and feel that, that warmth. I'm like, that's meditation.

Bill: Yeah. Well, what a relief. What a relief. Yeah.

Marty: Yeah, it's it the, as long as you are aware of your thoughts, aware of the sensations, right? Not thinking about them. You are meditating.

Bill: So, so maybe for those that are listening that can relate to my experience of how difficult I found. Meditating to be as I, as long as I've thought about meditation in the way that I have, like following the clear instructions of Dr. Joe Dispenza or, or sitting in stillness for just as long as I can tolerate, then

Marty: None of this is meditation, none of that. So what you were working so hard at wasn't meditation.

Bill: yeah. Yeah. Gosh. See, I believe you. I believe that what you, how you think about meditation is probably just exactly what meditation is, and yet I think I've gotten a lot of really bad information about it. You know, stories about instructors who, you know, hit their, their students on the head when they don't meditate. Right? And, uh.

Marty: No, it's. That, that, that moment I saw, I was in a conference call this morning and there were a number of people on the call and it was a heady conversation. And at one moment I noticed that while the discussion went on, the leader of the meeting, she just let her eyes close and she, I could tell she was just taking it in, but eliminating one sensory input.

Bill: Yes.

Marty: She was, she was meditating on the conversation, bringing more focus. Right. and and it's as easy as just like, okay, that's what I wanna focus on. Not what I'm seeing, but what I'm

Bill: Yes.

Marty: And I'm aware that that's what I'm focusing. That's meditation.

Bill: Now, now this will sound like what I'm about to share. It sounds like about the opposite of what I've been sharing so far. But I'm gonna share it 'cause it's, it's what's true. I recognize that when I shift from one focus to another one, um, investment of my attention and time to another, especially as a, as, as a coach, an IFS coach, it's really important for me to leave the past five minutes ago. And, and arrive into the present moment.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: prior to getting on onto a coaching session with a client or a group of of clients, I'll, I'm very intentional about that. And selfishly what I will do at the beginning of the group sessions is ask my participants to join me for three, four minutes, and then I'll guide them through a meditation. Essentially, what that meditation sounds like is me describing what I'm doing. And they either follow along or they don't. And, and in fact, I, I give them that invitation to remember that they're a choice and they, they can do whatever they wish to do. But if they want to join me in meditation, I ask them to, for example, just notice where their feet are, notice their body posture, um, find, notice how much effort they're putting into holding their body up. See if they can make adjustments so that there's a less effort, uh, uncross legs in arms, just to, to feel your connection to the earth.

Marty: All of which is building awareness.

Bill: And then ultimately we'll end up with just notice breath. No need to change or trans to, to, to anything with your breath. But notice it and notice that by noticing it, it changes sometimes.

Marty: By the way, that's, it's very, that's, will tell you, or they've told me, that's so hard to just. See the breath without changing it. Every time I notice my breath, I feel like I need to deepen it or quiet it or do something to it. That's, so that's a great example of the challenge the beauty of meditation.

Bill: even that, and, and maybe even especially that is noticing and that that's something that I noticed just by taking these, these four or five minutes be before we actually begin anything in a group, is that every single time I brought my attention to my breath, it changed. Sometimes I, I became aware that the reason it changed was because there was a part of me that thought I should be bring breathing more deeply.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: That part brought its influence in such a way that it automatically felt like it automatically changed my breath.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. That's that. I, I think that's accurate.

Bill: And the next thing that we do in my groups is after we've done that internal meditation, we do what I call an external check-in.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And because we're focused on the internal family systems model and we look at everything through the lens of IFS during that one to two minute check-in, depending on the size of the group and what we have to do that day, uh, participants then will report what they noticed during, during that meditation time.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: that my breath did change, or I noticed that as soon as you began giving, giving some instructions, I went somewhere else. I didn't listen to a thing you said. I noticed that I had parts that couldn't let go of what was happening an hour ago, and all of that to me is just amazing and beautiful that, that my part, my, my clients, the participants in my groups have that much awareness, that much focused attention and awareness. Well, I'm gonna shift a little bit, so if you have something to comment about what I've just said, I can come back to this.

Marty: I wanted what you just said, there are some, some mornings when I get up for that hour meditation and I'm, I'm, you know, I'm thinking the whole time. Practically, you know, I, I go back to, I use a mantra. I'll say more about that if you want, um, 'cause it's a very powerful tool and it's simple, brilliant tool. But, you know, I, I'll start the mantra then I'm noticing, oh, I gotta figure out this thing and, and, oh, I'm not meditating. Go back to the mantra and then, oh, I'm thinking about this trip I'm going on. I get to the, you know, the. The end of the hour and I think I haven't accomplished anything. You know, why did I bother? But even if there's that, that one moment, sometimes it's just like a drop of meditative energy, of self energy connecting with. So like, oh, I recognize that I haven't been meditate. I've been thinking, Even if just that one little drop could give you perspective on value perspective for the whole day. So it, you know, it doesn't have to, you don't have to sit there for 2, 3, 2, 3 hours in no thinking to have the effect. It could just be a little moment connection to self that that could be all you need that day. And that's beautiful not to be over.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Boy, so much to talk about here. Um, now that we brought it into the realm of what I can I what, how I can relate to it, you know, from, from, um, the awareness of IFS before IFS, the meditation was noticing thinking in a, in rather than thinking, thinking.

Marty: Yes.

Bill: Uh, and the, the influence that helped me with that was the work of Byron Katie. Who brought to my attention, she said it this way. Do you believe everything that you think? And, and I think I probably heard that question before, but after having an experience and observing her experience, her process with others in a way to help me integrate what I had just observed, she asked that question. Not to me personally, but to everybody in the, in the audience that where I was attending this workshop. Do you believe everything that you think? And that landed as a really profound question for me. Really. I thought about it for the first time and my answer was, I think so. I think, I believe everything I think is there. Is there another option and her way to demonstrate that? Yes. In fact there is a different option, is to say, notice if you are suffering in any way. And now notice that. That suffering is very likely associated with a thought that you're thinking, that argues with reality.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And now step away from the thought. This, this is not the way Byron and Katie talks about it, but this is the way I talk about what I, what I learned there. Now step away from that thought and notice that, that you're having a thought. You're not thinking that thought.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: didn't distinguish where the thought was coming from, like IFS does. But she said, now separate yourself. Basically. Separate yourself from the thought and look at it.

Marty: Who would you be without the

Bill: Well, first of all, is it true? Is the thought even true?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Because I was automatically believing every thought that I had. My answer was always yes at first. That's why she's clever enough to answer question two, where she goes to the absolute,

Marty: Is it, uh,

Bill: can you absolutely know it's true.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So in that way, I began to meditate and I didn't even realize it. Interestingly, at the very same time, my friend Alan and I were going to places up on the South Hill hill here in Spokane where people were gathering together and meditating. And it was a nice, it was nice to do this with, with him and, and with this new community of people.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: me, the greatest value was being with people and not being alone and being in that, and now what I understand as I look back on it is to be in that self energy that that was being generated. It seemed. Just in the, in the connection between people.

Marty: That's exactly right. I, i my best. In other words, deepest, most real, you know, deep. I'll just say that my deepest meditations have always been in group because of all the self energy that's

Bill: Yeah. That's great.

Marty: generated and connected and that my, my best meditation have always been with a group.

Bill: That's so interesting because these groups that I do, whether it's parts work practice, where we have anywhere from 40 to a hundred people gathering to build trust-based relationships with their parts, and to practice doing that together, or groups of two or three or six or eight that I, that I have in my paid groups. That's what I sense. There's just, and, and I can just rest and trust it like my, the egoic build the coach that shows, that shows up sometimes when I catch that, that's what's going on, and then I just relax and rest into the energy that's in the space that we've created together. Great things happen in that session.

Marty: Amazing. Yes. Yes.

Bill: So now I'm having the thought notice. I'm not thinking the thought, I'm having the thought that the way this episode began, I was taken by surprise that you have had a presentation for us.

Marty: I, I presented last time we talked too,

Bill: Oh, I didn't notice it last time.

Marty: three weeks ago. You, we, we said, oh, you know, the next two weeks you, you, we wanna talk

Bill: Self selfish one.

Marty: selfish and then meditation. And so I, I, I wanted to be prepared. Uh, I, I was reading from notes last time

Bill: Oh, well I didn't pick up on that last time. Yeah. We ended up, I believe, uh, having the same kind of experience because I recall the second half of the episode, I felt more engaged in the first, first half of it.

Marty: Mm,

Bill: When, when I was actually participating with you rather than just consuming what you were presenting. Yeah. So I'm having the thought and um.

Marty: Of course. Yeah.

Bill: What, of course.

Marty: I, I am the same way. I'm more, I'm, I'm much more alive when I'm involved rather than just watching somebody

Bill: Right, right, right. So, um, I, I wanna thank all of our listeners for listening today.

Marty: So by way of saying goodbye, I would just say, enjoy those moments. When you're noticing life, just give yourself full permission to be in the noticing, the awareness of what you're feeling, the awareness of what someone is saying, the awareness of your, your body. Just enjoy that because that awareness is the source of everything.

Bill: And what if that's what meditation is all about? And it sounds like that's exactly the point you've made today.

Marty: Exactly.

Bill: Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.