Selfish, Selfless, Oneness

Marty: : Hello everyone. Welcome back to the True You podcast. We haven't been doing anything since the last time we spoke to

Bill: : Just waiting for this day to come so we can talk again.

Marty: : Yeah, no, no, that's not true. But as you hear, I'm with my friend here in the podcast, uh, Bill Tierney, who is a compassionate results-based IFS coach lot, a lot of distinguishing, uh, there. Um, which if you would like to expand on, we could do right now. Um, just so people, you know, I said it kind of quickly, does that

Bill: : Yeah. Well, you know, interestingly, I, uh, on my mind right now is that I'm gonna be changing the way I identify my business from my name, which represents who I am. Some in some ways to. Uh, what I do, which is compassionate results. I help people achieve the compassionate results. I use the internal family systems model to do that. So I just talked to my virtual assistant this morning and several other people the day before and the day before about what, what all of this is gonna be entailed in getting this switched over. But soon, uh, the way to find me will be through the Compassion Results Coaching website, which is not yet launched, so it stays as bill coaching for now.

Marty: : Okay. All right, great. Um, and, and our topic for today is something that comes up in a lot of different ways for a lot of us. Um, and it's about the, tension between being selfish, looking out for yourself being selfless. You know, which is to say, well, it's very simple, little, like putting on somebody else's oxygen mask first. Right. Um, acting out of, um, concern and love and interest in others before acting outta self-interest. and this comes up a lot, um, in a business transaction. You know, do, do I give them a better deal than I wanted them to have or do I, you know, look out for myself first? For example. Right. Um, and I'm sure you can immediately work off of that to many situations that you face. Um, talking to the reader now or the listener, um, in life where it's like, oh my gosh. You know, how do I decide this, um, out my self interest or out of what would be better for them?

Bill: : I am just writing down a little question here that maybe we'll explore in the conversation is how I, I, and I heard you say this, but I've added to it a little bit already. How do I decide when, when our interests clash? yeah, this, the selfish word I can tell you right now triggers some internal reactions.

Marty: : Yeah.

Bill: : shaming memories where I was told over and over and over again that I was selfish. It lands as it lands, as shaming and critical. Selfless is a concept that seems, you know, that my, my parts are reacting to that as well. To be selfless seems idealistic and unrealistic.

Marty: : And yet that's what we're admonished to be like. That seems like what we're told. You know, that's what Jesus did. He was selfless, right? That's what the saints all did. They were selfless. Um, they were willing to wear rags as long as they could help the poor, for example, right? Um, so yeah, it does seem a little off, and yet that's what our, I, our, model is our ideal. So, I'm gonna briefly from, my book quoting Dan Harris, who many of you know, he's written on a lot of different topics, but he's, um, A big, an important

Bill: : Is is,

Marty: : I'm not

Bill: : is

Marty: : go

Bill: : he the one that used to be, an announcer and then special became, became interested in meditation and now Toxin teaches about it.

Marty: : That's

Bill: : Okay. He's a fun, he's funny too.

Marty: : He can be very funny. Yes. he, and he wrote a book, um, the, one of the first books I think that got his name out. Um, I think it was called The End of Faith.

Bill: : Oh, really? I, I, I read one of his books. That one doesn't sound familiar, but Okay.

Marty: : Yeah. He would prefer we all not be religious,

Bill: : Yeah.

Marty: : that he thinks religion just gets in the way. But on this topic, he interviewed the Dalai Lama.

Bill: : Right. Yeah.

Marty: : So, and, and so in a, and in a book that he wrote called The Benefits of Being Selfish. Dan Harris recounts in his conversation with the d Dalai Lama his holiness had a theory that elegantly exposed the false binary between selfishness and selflessness. Right? So we've guide, tried to set it up as a terribly difficult binary until now. We're gonna break that right down.

Bill: : Good.

Marty: : Uh, he called it Wise selfishness. This is the Dalai Lama Dan Harris talking about the Dalai Lama. So he refers to the Dalai Lama, called it Wise Selfishness. We all have an inborn penchant for self-interest. It's natural and nothing to be ashamed of. But he, the Dalai Lama said, a truly enlightened self-interest also means recognizing that acting in generous and altruistic ways makes you happier than solely being out for yourself does. So the Dalai Lama's interested in our happiness, and he says, if you wanna be happy, then you're gonna wanna be generous and altruistic. That'll make you

Bill: : Yeah,

Marty: : Interesting.

Bill: : interesting and it, and, and it resonates as valid and true.

Marty: : Right. It certainly does. So selfish selfless is a false binary based on a misunderstanding I'm gonna say of what self means. What is self.

Bill: : I, I just wanna report that as I'm listening, I've departed from the conversation only to reflect on an experience I had yesterday that the conversation is reminding me of,

Marty: : Uh

Bill: : and it's also activating parts of me that are wondering about the wisdom of sharing the story of what happened yesterday. And I'm leaning in, in the direction of sharing, despite the fact that I have a concern or fear that if I share, I might be misunderstood in terms of the mode of for sharing in the first place.

Marty: : Well then tell us your motives and share.

Bill: : Well, I've got a lot of motives for sharing. One is I think that it'll add to the conversation.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Two, it'll provide a context for discussion, questions that might come up around the experience itself that you might have for me if I share it, that, that I probably have for myself. Um, and, and a motive to not share. It would be for fear of judgment that I might be judged as wanting something for myself, selfishly wanting something for myself, like my reputation to be improved. If, if you, if you hear this story, so now I'll just tell it and let, let the listener decide for themselves if they'd like to judge me and just stay out of their business.

Marty: : Okay.

Bill: : Kathy and I went to, um. Um, there's a place here in Spokane called Sonenberg, and it's an old meat market slash grocery store slash deli counter. And, and it's located in a, in an impoverished part of Spokane.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : actually a lot of homeless people that are camping out in that area. And, um, yesterday when we got there, it was in the evening. It had already gotten dark about 7:00 PM and as we're walking around the corner into the entrance to the store, there was an homeless man, I assume I made this up, but he had a cart full of his, of stuff like blankets and tents and his stuff, a grocery cart full. And he was standing there with his coat on, not asking for money, not begging, nothing like that. But I had the thought, I don't think he has a home and I don't think he has any place to go. And something inside me tugged. So what, as we're in the store getting the things that we came there for. I kept thinking about him, and I kept, kept thinking about how nice it is recently in my life to not have to be, to worry and struggle around money. And so I just decided to pull a, a, a $20 bill outta my wallet, stuck it in my pocket to see if I felt like giving it to him when I walked out. And I did. So I gave it to him and I said, I hope this will help. And he was very grateful. We walked to the car, we drove away, and, um, it felt really good. Really good. It doesn't feel as good to be telling about it now, um, as it felt about, about giving it to him. And in fact, in a way it feels almost like I'm diminishing it by telling it, telling it. But, but I, I wanted to share it, not to say, Hey, look how generous I am, but to tell you how good it felt. To be able to give someone some money based on an assumption that he could use it, that he could really use that money.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Interestingly, absent, uh, an assumption that I normally make, which is that he's gonna use this for beer and cigarettes and pot that prevents me from being generous.

Marty: : I see. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Bill: : So

Marty: : Yeah.

Bill: : it is. I don't know. Maybe that can be weaved into this. Maybe not.

Marty: : Well, I think that's what the Dalai Lama is pointing to that, that good feeling. But let's, I think I, I think it will be an important example for us to refer back to here as we, as I tried to distinguish

Bill: : Good.

Marty: : So the tendencies, we think we are our thoughts like that, that, that those thoughts that we're having, that they, they really tell you who I am. You know, I, I. I am a man. I, I am an American. And, and, and also like when I get defensive about something like you, like I have this idea and you are against it and I fight like it's, it is me that you're against, right? um, also, you know, we seek approval, you know, like, you know, I said this thing, I laid this idea out and, and now if you don't like it, it's like you don't like me. So there are a lot of ways in which we identify with our thoughts, and it's important to see that we're not our thoughts, right? There are two different things. There's you and there's your thoughts. know, like I could, I could think about giving that guy money and not do it, right. I'm not the thought, the guy

Bill: : Mm-hmm.

Marty: : right it, and not do it. Right. I would even say by the way, that the mind makes things separate. Like that's its job to separate things out, to make sense of the world. Like, you know, you are one person, I'm another, and, um, thought is one thing and I am another. Right? The mind helps us get, get things sorted out. But the, the truth is that you couldn't live you weren't part of this big picture. The, the nature and community like you, we don't, we don't, we don't, we, if we're cut off and totally separate, we don't survive.

Bill: : I need what isn't me to survive?

Marty: : what does it mean to

Bill: : No, I said I, I'm just reflecting back. I'm hearing I need what is not me to survive. Is that what I'm hearing?

Marty: : No, I, no, you, you need what is you, which is your family and your community and the natural world. You need the galaxy to survive. And all of it is you, is my point,

Bill: : But the mine's job is to separate me from parts of,

Marty: : the food that you eat, you know, from, from the other people in your town, um, from the trees and flowers out there, from the ocean way off, and the clouds up there, your mind separates them so that we can talk about them and attend to them. But you really are a part of all of that. You wouldn't be able to survive without all of it. You are made of the same stuff as all of it.

Bill: : yeah.

Marty: : The same a hundred some elements,

Bill: : My body is, yeah.

Marty: : yeah. Um, and, and your mind too.

Bill: : How do we know that? Wait a minute. How do we know that our mind is made up of the same a hundred elements that make up everything else that we know of?

Marty: : because it came out of the same, it came from the same place.

Bill: : reason, that distinction is, is not as easy for me to swallow and accept as all everything else that you just said,

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : but we don't need to get hung up there.

Marty: : Yeah. I mean, we could come back to it. I think it's an interesting question to talk about, but, um, so what I'm saying is that there is this unity in all of the, the diversity that the mind sees there. It, it is all of a piece, it's all related. It's all connected.

Bill: : Recently in my True You coaching groups, when I do the opening meditation, that helps people to get present.

Marty: : Yeah.

Bill: : I will, I'll do a focus on grounding, noticing that the feet, your feet are, if they're planted on, on the ground or anything connected to the ground, is connected to the earth.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : and I do all my work on Zoom. I rarely have a coaching session with somebody face to face.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : there might be somebody in Charleston, North Carolina, someone in, in, uh, somewhere in Florida, someone over in the uk, all of us in the, in the same Zoom meeting. And, and now I'm guiding them to through meditation for three or three to five minutes. And, and I'll say, with your feet grounded and connected to the Earth , just consider that everybody else that's in this Zoom meeting right now is also connected to the earth. And in that way we are connected.

Marty: : Very good. Very good. Yes. That's awesome. And, and, and there's something, you know, psycho chemical that goes on when you say that to them, that's very important.

Bill: : I'm not alone. I am not separate. I really am connected.

Marty: : and if you, if you identify with, well, but this body here is connecting to this plot of land here, and they're connected to a different body with a different mind way over there in Australia, then yeah, selfish and selfless are mutually exclusive for sure. Two bodies or two contradictory thoughts live in the same space. Consequently, you have to choose to either put on your child's mask first, your oxygen mask, or your own. You can't, you, it's gotta be one or the other first. You can't do both at the same time. And authoritarianism, just to take an example, cannot live in the same place and time as democracy. That just doesn't, right? Doesn't make any sense. But if you understand yourself to be like at work, you're the team that's getting something done, or in your town that you're part of the citizenry of the town, or you know, for those of us who are spiritually minded, if you think of yourself as a child of God, right? In God's kingdom, in the family of God, then you put aside this sort of exclusive attention on this particular body and its circumference, Or those particular thoughts and what they, world that they create and. You can then see that if you reach out to help somebody else, you're actually helping yourself, If, if you do something for your town, you're doing it for the whole citizenry of the town, and you are a citizen of the town, right? So very quickly, this selfish versus selfless distinction disappears. And this is why the great tradition, the great, um, spiritual traditions, they all say identify with humanity, right? Just a quick quote here from loop, but I say it to you who hear, love your enemies. Do good to those you hate. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who abuse you. Or Kasmir, sham Baez says, see God in everyone. Uh, even the prophet Muhammad exemplified, I say even because it's more foreign to me. I don't, there's, that's all I meant by

Bill: : Yep. Nice catch.

Marty: : No, no other statement about is the prophet Muhammad exemplified the non-binary nature of the relation between self and the other by showing mercy to his enemies. Even during battles,

Bill: : Hmm.

Marty: : like the Battle of Baur Islam encourages fighting your inner enemies while pardoning your neighbors matters in allah's hands.

Bill: : Uh, say that one again. That, would you repeat what you just said about fighting your en inner enemies instead of your neighbors?

Marty: : That's right. Exactly

Bill: : I guess I just, I just restated it.

Marty: : And leave the risk.

Bill: : of all that you've shared so far, it's, it's distant from me and my certain, my current comprehension and understanding. It's a different way, basically for me to be thinking about things than I normally do. But what you just now said resonated without any issue, any problem at all. Yeah,

Marty: : great. Great.

Bill: : yeah, I would much prefer to recognize the enemy within, not that there are any, but to, to notice the parts of myself that, that think that they have enemies in here working with those, rather than focusing on who, who or what to fight out there.

Marty: : that shows, I would say, your generosity of spirit. Right. But, but my, saying that, um. That it only makes good sense. If you wanna, if you wanna take care of yourself, then you will take care of those around you. It's, I mean, think about it, if you live in a glass house on the hill with all of the luxury in the world and every, and you've got, nobody else has any money. Let's say, just to take a weird example, I wrote a short story like that was when I was in high school. the character in my story on the glass, in the glass house on the hill, constantly bothered by people knocking on his door asking for money or, you know, crowding the streets when he is trying to get to his job. Because, you know, we are related. We live in one

Bill: : Mm-hmm.

Marty: : And so the upliftment of the world is the upliftment of you. That's the point. And so, so you fight your inner enemies, so, and you pardon your enemies.

Bill: : Mm-hmm.

Marty: : So that you're external because it's gonna make you happier, as the Dalai Lama said. And I would say richer and, and more, have a more easeful and fulfilled life and more productive, all of that,

Bill: : Uh, I think a good example of the experience of this would be five o'clock traffic. And I'm smiling not almost at, at the point of laughter, just as I remember the, maybe not the first time, but one of the first times that I realized in the middle of five o'clock traffic that I was so mad at all these people around me, like, look at all these people. And then the thought occurred to me, I am a people, I'm part of this. I'm part of this problem that I'm complaining about right now. I'm a problem for the guy next to the car next to me.

Marty: : Mm-hmm. Right, right. And so then, then you start to make decisions like, well, maybe I should take an alternate route that would, that, you know, it might be a little longer for me, but. It would ease everything, both for me and

Bill: : Maybe I take public transportation. Maybe I don't need to take this trip right now. Maybe I choose a different time of the day to and combine a bunch of trips that I, that I can get all in once.

Marty: : There are a million, there are a million other ways to think

Bill: : Mm-hmm.

Marty: : it, but the point is that, you know, if you're just thinking it's all about you, then you're gonna have more

Bill: : And my, in what I'm inconvenienced and discomforted by is all, all because of you And, and, uh, then yeah, I'm, I, I, I don't have access to the generosity that opens up to creative thinking and, and, uh, innovation.

Marty: : So that's why I, you know, my only point here is you wanna think of who you are as. In connection, like there's no you out of connection, whether it's to nature or to other people, to history or to, you know, that thought that your wife is thinking in the other room. Right now, we're all connected and when we think of ourselves as being in these relationships, we get better outcomes than if we assume that we're isolated and not not connected. Your true self is the whole universe.

Bill: : So if I'm feeling disconnected, if I'm feeling disconnected, it's because I've lost that perspective.

Marty: : Exactly. Which I assume in IFS, they would call the self. That perspective is of the self.

Bill: : Yeah. And lately, um, there's, there seems to be more and more and more conversation, um, about the spiritual nature of the self. The, the fact that the self is not just isolated, uh, from myself is not isolated from yourself. And, and that, that we might even ha that the self of Bill and the self of of Marty might even have a common connection beyond who we are individually.

Marty: : Right? I mean, which is different than if you said, well, no, you have a different body than I do. You are in Washington, I'm in Colorado. We're separate, we're different. What are you talking

Bill: : Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: : But when you think of, well, that, that's really not what feels like. It feels more, and, and you know, if you look at what allows us to live, it's more than, than just the body. And so, um, that, that changes everything about what, what, when you look at what, well, one of the times this came up was during the pandemic, right? And I know there's a lot of controversy about to do in the pandemic and, vaccination and all of that. And without getting into all of it, it's clear that one thing that nobody could avoid, uh, realizing is that we're connected. You know, you gotta watch out who you breathe on. And, and, and if you need medical help, you, you can't fix yourself. You right. A lot of uh, scenarios came out of that time that just reminded us, oh my gosh, we are so

Bill: : So, yeah, so interdependent.

Marty: : Yes. Yes. Now, if that forces us to think of ourselves as spiritual beings rather than just bodies, I'm okay with that.

Bill: : Yeah. Yeah. And Mighty say it that way. What? What do you mean you're okay with that?

Marty: : Well, because I heard you say, well there's, it's getting more popular now to think of us as spiritual beings.

Bill: : I didn't say exactly that. I said specifically that in the IFS community, there's more and more conversation about how self is not just, um, something that we can tap into and benefit and get more of individually and I in an isolated way that that self myself and yourself is actually connected.

Marty: : yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a theme that comes and goes in hu in in human history. You know, you can see where. Like in the ancient world, Muhammad Jesus, the, the, you know, the Dalai Lamas of, of ancient times, they knew this, but then it goes out and, you know, we forget about it. We become all self, self-absorbed as individuals and then it comes to light again. Like, oh my gosh, yes, the pandemic, I need others. Right. And so I, I think it comes and goes, we, we, we forget

Bill: : Huh.

Marty: : and need to what self is.

Bill: : Um, yeah, this is a strange twist that my mind, just took a, a little turn there.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : when you talk about that coming and going, my, my thoughts went to, well, why does it, what causes it to come? And, and, and go,

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : why maybe does, um. A predominance of, of, of individuals. Why do, why would an the predominance of individual think, think more spiritually in connection during one era and then shift out of that into, let's say, more materialistic and individualistic in another area? And that's what you're referring to. Yes.

Marty: : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Um, and, and the, the answer that came up just quickly without examining it deeply is fear. In both cases that fear, fear can drive us to connect again. Fear can drive us apart as well.

Marty: : Mm-hmm. I think that that is the number one, and you could look at, well, what was the source of it here? What was the source of it there? Then that might be different, but I think ultimately, that's my impression. It's always been some form of fear

Bill: : that both connects or disconnects

Marty: : that disconnects.

Bill: : Well, and, and you were saying, well, that, that the, the pandemic. A actually brought us back together too, or brought, brought the idea that we are connected and dependent.

Marty: : I might be wrong, I think that, um, we had to, we had to, we reacted in fear and then later discovered the importance of giving that fear up to, to, you know, to take care of our each other.

Bill: : see. Yeah.

Marty: : I don't think it was the fear that brought us together. I think that was love.

Bill: : Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So maybe, maybe though the, the fear that forced us back together again reminded us just how great it is to how much we need that connection and how how great it is to have it.

Marty: : It's who we are. It is who we are. Right. That's why I thought it was important to talk about this tension between selfish and selflessness on the True You Podcast, because it, it brings up this very deep question about who we are, what is the true you?

Bill: : Yeah.

Marty: : And it's not separate, it's connected.

Bill: : You say that with so much confidence, um,

Marty: : I do completely , and I think that's why it, you know, that word connection is one of the, C words in IFSI think that's

Bill: : yeah.

Marty: : because it, it's a divine quality. It tells you something about the truth.

Bill: : Yeah. Yeah. To me, the, the concept that we are all connected and all the same is still very conceptual, right. I

Marty: : I just keep going back to biology, like to notice how I'm able to a life to not only survive, but have a, an in, you know, an a rich experience

Bill: : sure. I mean, if you don't mind me playing devil's advocate here, which is easy for me to do because I don't, because I'm only holding it as a concept that isn't finding, its its bed to rest in. Uh, I understand interdependence, I understand how I need all that there is in, in nature and in the world, the physical world there. There's so much, if not all of it, that I need in order to survive. I get that, but, but it seems still a leap that, that the correlation between my need for connection to that which I need to survive equals I am, I am all that I need that you and I are the same. Okay.

Marty: : Well, just, I just wanna tweak a little bit of what you say and then we'll, then we'll look at the thesis, um, that it, it's not only like survival needs, but a need for aliveness. Like, think, think about a, a, a person who lives in complete isolation versus somebody who is playing on a base on a basketball team. Like there's a lot more aliveness in that connection of team and play than there is in, you know, being isolated in a cold, dark cave. So it's not just a need, you could survive alone, but aliveness is supported by connection.

Bill: : Okay. And still that, that's just more evidence of, of interdependency, but it, but it's not evidence to me of oneness. And I don't know if this is just somatics and definition, but I'm just, it's, it's, I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around that being anything other than a nice thought that we are, that we are all one, that I'm, I'm one with the, the tree out here in front of me.

Marty: : I might be making a leap between interdependence and oneness. It sounds like that's what you're saying. I'm making a leap between

Bill: : Well, there's a leap for me, just, just in the way that I think about things and, and it could be that I'm just missing a, a, a really crucial element that would make it an easy connection and easy to understand. But anytime, frankly, anytime I've read or heard this kind of a concept, this kind of an idea that I, that we are all one, it's. It, it almost requires me to say, okay, lemme just accept that as true. Even if I don't understand it and for, for the way that I'm wired. That just doesn't work. I don't seem to be able to do that

Marty: : I don't, I don't see anything works without it. How do you mean that? What do you mean when you say it doesn't work?

Bill: : in my brain. It doesn't. There's, there's a, there's a gap between we are interdependent and we are one, and I don't know how to fill that gap.

Marty: : Well, let's talk about it. Let's just talk about it because, um, they, they are d they, they do, they do say two different things, that's for sure. And just at a simplistic level, to me, recognizing the interdependence recognizing that everything's connected and, and there's nothing that isn't. there's all, there's a sense of oneness because is separate. It's all connected. And there's nothing that is outside of that connection. There's nothing outside the universe. The universe is the whole thing. And, and if that includes bodies and minds and, and spirituality and, and everything is in the one universe and it's all connected. And so that's, that's how I jump from interdependence to oneness.

Bill: : Okay. And, and so I can see that I'm a part of this universe and everything that's in it, but I still can't and, and have a gap between, I'm a part of this universe And I am at one with everything in the universe that I, so I'm a part of, of the,

Marty: : for sure none, almost none of our thoughts are about, none of our recognition is, is of the one Right. That, so I agree with you that it lives beyond anything we think about.

Bill: : well, let's bring experience in too though. Have you had an experience of oneness? I have not.

Marty: : I

Bill: : Okay. So that's maybe the difference, maybe that's the gap. I have not, I've heard people going, you know, taking mushrooms, gins, uh, this is getting more and more common. People are using IFS along with hallucinogens and having these profound experiences and coming back and talking about this, these experiences of, of oneness, and it sounds amazing. But I haven't had that experience, and maybe that's required in order to really create this concept.

Marty: : I mean, I think, well, yes, I mean, but I, I, you were referring to one day you give your clients on the, on Zoom calls, have them experience, oh, we're all have our feet on this one. Same Earth.

Bill: : Yeah. So that's a physical connection. It's an energetic connection,

Marty: : Right.

Bill: : it doesn't mean that I am, I lean over there in, in the uk

Marty: : Not as bo Now we're talking about bodies again,

Bill: : No, I'm not. I'm talking about, I'm talking about who I am. I, I'm not under the any illusion that I am my body. I have a body.

Marty: : Okay, well that, but that energetic connection with Eileen. What is, what is

Bill: : There's a connection there. But that doesn't mean that I am Eileen or that she is me. That we are one.

Marty: : Well, there is something that you are both, it's not, it's not your personalities. It's not what's being named by Bill and Eileen, but there's something connecting you, you, I, you called it energetic. That's the one thing that the both of you have in common is that connection.

Bill: : In my brain, and I may be thinking about this wrong, but in my brain when I talk about the energy that flows through and, and emanates from me, it's a unique energy to to Eileen.

Marty: : that's how you change the subject. We were talking about the connection that you feel with Eileen when you both recognize your feet are on the same earth, not the energy that you are generating as Bill Se, you know, from, from your mind and body. Right? Now I'm talking about the connection that you mentioned between the two of you

Bill: : I, I'm at risk of sounding really stupid here, and in fact, I'm already starting to feel stupid in this conversation. I'm talking about planet Earth as that which connects us. The physical planet Earth is what connects us.

Marty: : in that example. Yes.

Bill: : Yeah.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Still two separate thises connected by a third connector, the planet Earth.

Marty: : And I'm focusing on the connection piece. Yes. You're two separate people, but you're connected and, and it's that connection that you share that is one, and there's two

Bill: : I'm getting,

Marty: : sharing something that is the same.

Bill: : yeah. Two, two bodies. Two nervous systems are merging. Something that did, doesn't exist without that connection. That's the way I think about it. So let's just say the, the energetic charge of, or the energetic flow of Eileen. Is connected to the energetic flow of Bill and the combination of those teams, two things. The alchemy of that is something that's not Eileen and that's not Bill separately,

Marty: : Exactly.

Bill: : saying? Oh, okay. Okay. So when you're saying oneness, you're saying that what I contribute to this universe and what I consume from the universe is unique to what everybody else contributes and consumes and, and, and we all make all that exist in the universe. What it is

Marty: : Yeah, I didn't quite understand the first part of that sentence. I, I got, I, I didn't, I didn't, it didn't quite Could you

Bill: : in my mind, I'm thinking about energy as electricity, which, which we usually can't see unless it sparks. But, um, I'm kind of thinking of the en, the energetic. Uh, the vibrational nature of boldness and the vibrational nature of Eileen this. And when these two connect and merge with each other, they form a unique vibration and flavor that otherwise doesn't exist.

Marty: : Okay.

Bill: : And now if we multiply that by every, everything that exists in the universe,

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : blending is what creates the energy and flavor of the universe as a whole.

Marty: : Yeah.

Bill: : Is this what we're talking about?

Marty: : Yeah.

Bill: : So that's what you mean by we are one. It's

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : to think about it. All right. I'm getting so much closer. Thank you. Thanks for indulging me here. I don't mean mean to be argumentative, I just, it's.

Marty: : I think that there's, there's, there is, I might need to just say out loud and, and this might make me look stupid, but there is, there is an inherent for the mind. Like, it doesn't make sense to say you and I are one when we can see we're two. Look, there's one screen there in Washington. There's one screen that, and then to say we're one, like, no, that would be a contradiction . we're, we're, we're not talking about that part of it. Right? It's like, it's like saying all of the ingredients that go into baking a cake are different ingredients. Yes, they are. And, and, but the cake is something that is above and beyond, not physically, not mentally, but it is above and beyond all of the ingredients and yet all the ingredients are in it. It is the one uniter of all the different ingredients, the cake and it, and so you would say, well, wait, A cake is not a pound of flour. You're right. Or a cake is not the butter. I mean the butter is not the flour. You're right. Those are two different things, but in the cake, they are one,

Bill: : Yeah,

Marty: : they're different ingredients in one

Bill: : they make something. They make something new.

Marty: : Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And, and, and this is, I love that you said it that way because what I'm pointing to is that selfless and selflessness, like butter and flour. I'm referring to a self that's neither of those. It's both of those

Bill: : Combined. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool.

Marty: : in an

Bill: : I,

Marty: : too, you know, not just sitting next to each other. Oh, right. But they've, they become cake. Like you and I become the oneself.

Bill: : Nice. Yeah, that, that was helpful. Thank you.

Marty: : You're welcome.

Bill: : I wonder now if I have thrown you off track or if you, if you've been able to communicate what you wanted to communicate about.

Marty: : This is perfect.

Bill: : Okay. Alright.

Marty: : perfect.

Bill: : Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: : It was, it was fun to be challenged, it was fun to find new ways of saying what it is that I, you know, intuiting

Bill: : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Marty: : Um, and, and thirdly, I think it's an extremely important conversation for us to be having in this divided world.

Bill: : Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: : So

Bill: : Wow.

Marty: : for the opportunity. Thank you for the

Bill: : Well, you're welcome. Thanks. Thanks, thanks for the conversation. What it just occurred to me was in this divided world, when you said that I thought, you know, there are people in this world, people in this country, people in this community that I live in that see things so dramatically differently than I do and, and that are probably as much or more committed to their positions than I am. And when now coming out of that conversation where. We're talking about bread and butter making, I mean, excuse me, flour and butter, making bread, um, left and right are somehow merging together to create this environment of divisiveness. And, and so that means that I, I'm, I'm just as much responsible for the, the result that we're experiencing now as, as what I view to be the opposite side of the argument.

Marty: : Well, I think the Dalai Lama would say that's a, that's the way to think about it. If you wanna be a part of the happiness that results from result that, you know, taking that responsibility could mean right. We will be happier, is what I hear him saying. we take re, if we say, yeah, I've gotta be, I've got, you know, there's divisiveness in my world. If I, if I accept that is me, I am divided, then I'm gonna be part of, uh, the unity making, unity making solutions, making workability workable. Ways forward, commonality. Um, and, and that will then be, to my credit, to my satisfaction that I was part of

Bill: : Yeah, yeah.

Marty: : And it's, I mean, in a very different way than, you know, my, like writing nasty notes to people who post stuff I don't agree with on Facebook doesn't gimme that satisfaction.

Bill: : No, no. I can't imagine that you've ever done that. Uh, but, but there's a lot of that that goes on.

Marty: : That's the

Bill: : Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: : Yeah. In fact, there's a, there's a woman, she's the sister of a person that I knew when I used to go to Costa Rica in the winter. And somehow we got on, you know, each other's Facebook and, um. She posts the nastiest stuff, uh, about Democrats and just how, I mean, she calls us evil. I'm not even a Democrat. I'm a member of the Green Party, but, know, words like evil and corrupt and like really, you know, the scum of the earth and they're all this way, and it's, my gosh. And I write to her, not, not where everybody can see it, but you know, in messenger. And I'm like, do you really think this? Why are you saying this? You know, we are just like, you were trying to find the way. Could you please cut us a, a, you know, a little slack so we could talk about these issues? And she completely shut me down. She didn't be un, she didn't unfriend me, but she was just like, no, this is the truth. And you just, uh, so I try and do just the opposite. I try and find unity with those people. Um. Or not have 'em around, but as opposed to like, you know, I, I see other people like her just, you know, saying the craziest stuff, the most divisive stuff. I think that's, how you produce death. Death on earth, kill life by doing that. And I'm for life. And it comes outta connection, you know, even if you get down to the chemical level, right? Right. Certain chemicals had to be living in just the right environment. This is probably deep in the ocean where those heat comes up out of the earth. That's where life first happened, and it was this combination of all these other crazy other elements that then produced life. Life is in connection.

Bill: : Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Oh, man. Just listening for the last two minutes, um, had me notice all the trail heads is that we passed by. Uh, just by, by entertaining that, like trail heads around, you know, why would somebody be so convinced that another group of people that identify with a political party are evil? And yet I can kind of see that maybe I do that a little bit. Like how can someone of this particular party be in that party given what we see happening in that party.

Marty: : Right.

Bill: : uh, how does that get reconciled? And how do we ever come back from how, how divided we are or we, we, we seem to be.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : those are questions that, that cross my mind. And I, I just notice, the negative, almost toxic, poisonous impact it has on my, on my soul, on my energy, when I even focus on that for very long.

Marty: : So the way you asked that question reminded

Bill: : I,

Marty: : of Paul Hawkins book. 'cause it's regenerating connection is really what it's

Bill: : yeah. Yeah.

Marty: : Right? and this is a be absolutely beautiful book, by

Bill: : Mm-hmm.

Marty: : Gorgeous book. That's just one page. But the, the conclusion, which is quite short, actually asks about, asks that very question. Um, it's written by a man named Gamo. And he asked this very question and, and I'll just summarize his answer. But I, I wanted to show and recommend this

Bill: : Uh, lemme just say it out loud so that, um, when we do show notes that it'll get in there Regeneration. Ending the climate crisis in one generation by Paul Hawken. H-A-W-K-E-N.

Marty: : And basically they say, um, act locally, think

Bill: : Mm-hmm.

Marty: : We've been talking today about thinking globally of the

Bill: : Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: : connection between things. And so in answer to your question, how do we ever get out of the divisiveness, act locally, be a force of connectivity and, and, and generosity and understanding the situations that you are confronted by. And gradually, then those will connect to my doing that and to other people's doing that. And eventually connection will reign. That's how we got the way we are in divisiveness. That's how we get out of it too.

Bill: : And it doesn't get any more local than your internal family. I've, I've waited this long in the conversation to bring up IFS. It doesn't get any more local than what's happening inside and, and the, the divisiveness bet between my parts, which is so, so common and indicative of what needs to be healed and maybe, uh, in the external world, it's what needs to be healed as well. Maybe the divisiveness points to what needs to be healed.

Marty: : that's why I wanted to include the quotation from Mohammed I thought it would strike a chord for all the IFS listeners out there. You know, handle your internal demons. Don't blame it on the

Bill: : Yeah. Yeah. You said, uh, act locally. How did you say that again?

Marty: : Think globally, act locally.

Bill: : Think globally. Act locally. It reminds me of something I thought of early on in the conversation around your, your questions. Um, such as, do I put on my own mask first or put it on my child first questions like, um, do I concern myself with the well wellbeing and welfare of those in the community? Before I, I, I bring, um, the concern and address my own personally.

Marty: : Right?

Bill: : Um, I think what you concluded about all of that is that it's, it's not either or. It's, it's, it's some, some somewhere in the middle. It's a, it's a blending of those. Like, I do need to practice self-care. That's my job. Um, and, and it feels really good to be generous and considers others as well.

Marty: : Yeah.

Bill: : And, and that feeling good to me is indicative of getting plugged into that internal guidance system

Marty: : yeah. Yeah.

Bill: : says, now we're on, now we're on track. Now we're heading in, in the direction

Marty: : That's right. And it's, and, and, and I just, when that I, my point today was to expand on the feeling and to also to survival and then also to fulfillment is based on that connection too.

Bill: : There's a.

Marty: : So I just, I just didn't wanna leave our listeners with this. Oh, well, it's only a feel good. That's

Bill: : Right. And I know we need to wrap up here, but I wanted to maybe just throw this in before we end and that, let's go back to my story. At Berg's,

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : I would not have been able to even consider given that man $20 if I didn't have $20 to give him.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : So there's this, this other saying that, that I love that, which is do well to do good. And, I've been doing pretty well and it's put me in a position to be able to do a lot of good. And I know there's probably more good that I can do and I wanna do even better so that I can do more good. I, I really love that I get to be a coach and that I get to be an IFS coach where the people that I touch. And help when, when those that are touched by my influence and, and helped by it experience less anxiety, for example, they, they find more traction in their lives to be able to accomplish whatever it is that they're about accomplishing. And the approach itself helps them tap into, um, a more generous interest in what it, what it is that they accomplish a more generous purpose for what it is that they want to accomplish than, than simply going after money, for example, or being able to buy that new car. Um, most people, what they really want is to be, to be able to contribute, to have an impact, to have an influence that improves and helps the people around them. Most people do. Most of my clients do.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : And so I get, I'm lucky, I really feel fortunate in so many different ways that I get to do what I get to do for a living. That I get paid well for it, and then I'm in a position to actually make a positive difference for, for other people, the better I do. And for some, I know that's a, that's a painful or difficult proposal that what if the proposal is what if it's okay for you to do well? What if you don't have to suffer and struggle just because there, when there are poor people in the world, when, when there are people that are struggling, is it okay for you not to be? And a lot of people really wrestle with that. I know that I did at one point, like, is it really okay for me to do well here because I, I'm looking over here at my brother who's standing there in front of Sonenberg and he, he's clearly not doing well. Do I feel guilty and ashamed about my, the fact that I'm doing well or do I simply just recognize that I've got access to some resources and can share just a little bit of them, or maybe more than just a little bit?

Marty: : Yeah. And when I share that access to more resources, then he's got, that raises him up so that. He could come mow my lawn while I'm, do you know, I'm just making up a story, but like the, it, it's the opposite of the guy in the glass house on the hill who's plagued by the fact that everybody else wants what he's got. When, when, when you know there's more, uh, a better distribution of the access to resources, then you can actually use, you know, you can, other people will be able to contribute to

Bill: : Yeah. Yep. Yeah. That's wonderful. Great way to wrap it up to Marty. Thank you. Thank you for the very interesting conversation. It, for me, the today's experience has been unique to previous conversations in that I, I didn't start out on, on really good, solid ground by Good. I just mean.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Familiar, easy comfort. Let's talk about something I'm, I've already established with within myself that I have confidence around. I haven't had a lot of confidence in this conversation. I haven't felt bad about not having the confidence other than that comment that I made, that I'm almost feeling stupid in the conversation. And I hope you know that that wasn't about you in any way, shape, or form. I

Marty: : Thank you for saying that. I did worry

Bill: : Oh yeah. Not at all. Uh, I, my, my reference to feeling stupid was not a criticism of you in any way. Just a recognition that what you're talking about is far advanced to anything that I've entertained up to this point, and when it comes to this, and yet I've been around these conversations in the past and I've nodded my head and said, yeah, we're all one. Okay, fine. But, but it's not really it, it hasn't really been an integrated, accepted knowing. I, I, I would have to say I'm closer to that now as a result of this conversation. It is still not there for me. Not yet. I I still, for me, my knowing and learning comes from experience, and I'm sure that's true for you, that too.

Marty: : You know, the, the, can I tell just a quick

Bill: : Sure, sure.

Marty: : so when I was in graduate school in philosophy where we used our minds to divide things up a lot,

Bill: : Mm-hmm.

Marty: : analysis, you know, break it down into its parts, um, uh, my, one of my favorite professors, he was an ancient Greek professor, died of cancer. We watched him wither away and die in one, like in

Bill: : Yeah.

Marty: : And, um, I was talking to my eventual dissertation father. What do you That's German. the, the director, the director of my dissertation, um, Dr. Hathaway, the, the Greek, after he had died and he and Margolis, my professor said something to me he said, you know, I spoke to him once at a cocktail party and he had had this experience sitting on the mountain, looking at the sun, going down. He told me he had this experience of being at one with the whole world. And I just wondered about that and I would like to have that experience and I, and that, that sparked my interest honestly, in this topic. That's where it started. I hadn't had it yet. I've since had numerous experiences of the

Bill: : Well.

Marty: : but that started with that story that Margolis told about Hathaway got me curious.

Bill: : And how long ago was that?

Marty: : That would've been like 95, so 30

Bill: : So 30 years of really entertaining this topic. And here for me, it's been far longer than that of avoiding this topic.

Marty: : I really acknowledge you for being willing to stay in this conversation. It wasn't easy for either us, but it was worth

Bill: : cool. Alright, I will see you next week. Marty and listener, thanks for hanging in and, and then, and listening. I'm deep, really interested in to hear from those that listen through the whole conversation. Your thoughts on how would, how would we phrase this? Well, selfless, selfish, and oneness really is where we,

Marty: : That's

Bill: : yeah.

Marty: : Yeah. We would love to hear

Bill: : Yeah.

Marty: : in the show. In the in the notes.