Spark of Divinity

Bill: I wanted to be able to believe, but I didn't. And I couldn't imagine having faith in something I didn't believe in.

Bill: I found about 300 pages into this book that I was reading it as if it was the truth, and I don't know how that happened.

Bill: There is a true north, and I can feel it.

Bill: Welcome to another episode of the True You podcast. My name is Bill Tierney, and this is my co-host, Dr. Martin Kettelhut. Marty

Marty: Hey, good afternoon, or whenever you're listening to this

Bill: In, uh, a conversation that we were having, I believe it was last week, probably, I think maybe even after we recorded last week's episode, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like we had a little bit of time to chat afterwards, and the topic of divinity came up, and I believe that the way it came up was that there's a, a conversation to be had around the IFS, uh, concept of self

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Bill: And, um, part of the conversation led to is self divinity or self human? Is self a part that's different than the other parts of a, of a human being? What is self? And where we landed and ended the conversation was an, an agreement to just talk about it, uh, during an episode, which is here we are talking about it today. And, and to continue the conversation there because we certainly didn't, we didn't end the conversation. We were still-- We just ran out of time

Marty: Right, right. Yes, I remember now because I was, I was bringing out, you know, in Christianity, there are denominations that talk about the divine being out there, over there, not in human beings. And there are denominations that say just the opposite, God is in us. We carry the divine in us wherever we go. And so-- and there are other... You know, and then we could look at world religions and which ones say God is separate from us. He's, he's transcendent versus imminent, right? In the world, in, in us. And so, yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot of different views on that

Bill: I think maybe one approach here, and I'm wanting to talk about this, so maybe this is the approach if you, if you can indulge me,

Marty: Mm-hmm

Bill: uh, is to talk about the evolution of my relationship with any, any kind of a concept of a god or a deity and, and, and how, how difficult this, this whole journey has been for me to get to a place where I can accept that there is a God

Marty: I would be very interested to hear that

Bill: I also wanna include in the conversation, I hope to hear from you too, and, and because we've, we have talked about this a little bit, and you and I have two com- very, very different experiences with the concept of God and the creator and religion and, and that sort of thing.

Marty: Yeah

Bill: So for me Uh, when I was eight years old, I just decided to tolerate what I was being told because it wasn't gonna-- there wasn't anybody else to talk to about it. Nobody-- I knew of no one that it was gon- was gonna be safe to have a conversation with about this. As a third-grade altar boy, I didn't have anything in me that believed anything that I was being told about God.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And it was being taught to me b-by my parents, by the priests and nuns at, at, at Assumption, where a great school and, and Catholic church, and it just didn't make any sense to me. A-and I wanted it to make sense. I wanted to be able to believe, but I didn't. And I couldn't imagine having faith in something I didn't believe in. So rather than risk having a critical conversation about this and having someone help me to, to grasp the idea without... I had a fear of being stupid. "I must be stupid that I don't get this, and everybody else does."

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: A fear of being bad. "I must be a bad person that I don't believe in God, and everybody else does." Um, I just, I just determined that I would, um, strategically hide the fact that I was bad and stupid around God.

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: And so I continued to show up. Of course, I didn't have a choice about going to Catholic school, so I showed up, and I was already an altar boy, so I continued to be an altar boy. And I, I mean, I was playing in guitar masses when I was 15 years old.

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: I was 15 when we moved to Great Falls, Montana, and I didn't have to have anything to do with church anymore once we'd moved away from my dad's family, there was no pressure for the, the entire family to have to go to church anymore. And, and for whatever reason, Mom and Dad decided they didn't, they couldn't afford the expense of sending us to Catholic schools, so I got to go to public schools. And despite my fear that the public schools were gonna be horrible, that there was a bad education and, and that it was a dangerous place to be, I found, uh, that I kinda thrived in, in public schools, and I thrived in the conditions where I didn't feel obligated to pretend like I believed in something I didn't believe in

Marty: Right, right

Bill: So I, I felt like I was kinda off the hook for the rest of my life. I don't have to do God, and I don't have to do church, and I don't have to do religion anymore. And, uh, but then that started hitting some resistance when I got married and we had kids, and my wife wanted to baptize those kids

Marty: Al

Bill: That had to happen in a church. Or we'd get invited to, um, a, a funeral or a wedding. Those happened in churches, and I, could physically feel a repulsion in me when I would walk anywhere near a church. Walking through the doors made me feel physically nauseated.

Marty: Mm, goodness

Bill: and actually sitting in any church of any kind was practically intolerable for me. And the worst part of it was listening to the sermons where same ideas were being espoused that I'd rejected when I was in the third grade.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Um, still not only not understanding, but now absolutely convinced that there wasn't really anything to understand, was all total BS, that it was something that was being made up and, and that the idea behind it was all, was all out, out of control. A way to control the people. I did not wanna be controlled

Marty: I see. Yeah

Bill: So that became be-- I mean, I, I married a Christian woman whose mo-mother was very, very Christian, is very, very Christian, and, and couldn't understand how I couldn't, couldn't go along with everybody else. Thought I was just being rebellious, and I guess I was. And then I got into Alcoholics Anonymous at the age of 27 years old, and there it is again. You gotta have God. You gotta have a higher power. And man, I really tried this time. I really, really tried because I, I believed what I was being told, which was that if I didn't find God... The way it was put is that I was alcoholic, and alcoholism is a, is a disease. And, and the problem with, for the alcoholic is that there's a lack of power, and that I needed to have a power that could solve my problem, and that power God.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So I needed to believe in God, and I couldn't. Could not. They even softened it up for me and said, "Well, just higher power." And it, and you, anybody gets-- you get to choose your own higher power. Even that just rubbed, rubbed me like I was being grated on a cheese grater

Marty: This reminds me of another reason this came up 'cause we were talking about high- the higher power within us, you know, that we, we recognize there are, there are lower powers within me and higher powers within me, you know?

Bill: Yes. Yes. Well, that's a great segue because very early in my sobriety, I was introduced to Emmet Fox, re- wrote several books, and I began to read them, and some of the stuff started making sense to me for the very first time,

Marty: Uh-huh

Bill: and that was one of the concepts. Not maybe using that exact same language, but I had an experience. I was working in the grocery store, and I was working-- I was on break with two guys that were using a lot of profanity and a lot of anger and a lot of violent kind of li- language, and I was, I was feeling very intimidated being in the space with them. They were my employees, but still, I felt intimidated by them. They're bikers and scary and, um, I was kind of scared for my own life around them.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Um, and I'd been reading this Emmet Fox book, and one of the things that was suggested was that I-- when I see another human being, that I greet-- recognize that there's a Chri- the Christ in every human being.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And, um, so I said, "Well, I mean, at this point I'm just willing to, to pray even though I don't believe there's a God that's listening to the prayer. I'm willing to try any kind of formula that might get me plugged into a God that actually could solve my problem with alcoholism."

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So I try it. These guys are having this loud, boisterous conversation and, and silently to myself, I say, "John, I greet the Christ in you." And, and John stops talking the moment I, I do that. And I turn and, and I, and I look towards Chris and I say, "Chris," to myself silently, "I greet the Christ in you." He stops talking. We've been sitting there for 20 minutes, and they've just been almost sh- out- shouting at each other, trying to compete for the next horrible thing that they were gonna say. And now there's complete silence. John says, "Jesus Christ, what the hell's going on here?" And they both got up and left the room,

Marty: I don't think I've met him Wow, that's amazing

Bill: Right. So here I am, 30 days sober or so, and I'm thinking, "What the hell was that? was that? That did-- What a c- Was that just a coincidence? Did that actually work?" I mean, I... It wasn't that I wanted them to shut up. I did, but I wasn't greeting the Christ in them so they would.

Marty: Right

Bill: Something happened to them when I greeted the Christ in them. Weird. A week later, a week before Christmas, we're out of money. Got-- Don't know where the money's gonna come from to get gifts for the kids. The, the cupboards are bare. We're broke. My wife's at work. I'm with the two kids. uh, struggling so much to try to get this God idea, and I'm praying to God, "God, you're gonna have to show me something. I mean, I've already had this experience in the break room. That's not enough.

Marty: Yeah

Bill: You're gonna have to show me something. Do you really exist?" And then comes a knock on the door, and I'm interrupted in my misery, and I'm pissed off about it. So I go to-- Begrudgingly, I go to the door. The kids run to the door. They're, like, two and three years old, and it's just before Christmas. I open the door, and there's a bunch of goddamn Christmas carolers out in the front yard. th- and they start singing Christmas carols, and I'm thinking, "Oh, come on, let's get this over with." Guy steps up on the porch, and he hands me a little pamphlet and a loaf of bread, and they finish the Christmas carol and say, "Merry Christmas." The kids say, "Merry Christmas." They go back to the TV. I go back to my table to feel sorry for myself cl- after closing the door, and I look at this pamphlet, and I look at this loaf of bread, and I thought, "I just asked God for a sign." And the, and I was worried about what we were gonna even have for dinner. Here's a loaf of bread. End up making grilled cheese sandwiches, and I open up the pam- pamphlet, and the very first page I open up to, the very sentence that jumps out on the page says, you're an alcoholic. Maybe you need God's help."

Marty: Wow

Bill: So logically, that doesn't make any sense. How does that happen that I'm-- that I pray this prayer for proof and this thing happens? And twice in the course of a week, I get the evidence that there's somebody listening,

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: or is it just a coincidence? And even then, I'm having trouble. Hmm. I wanna believe, still kinda hard to believe,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: but it made a difference for me, and I just kept, as AA says, coming to believe. And here th- I'll, I'll cap it off this way. It was 21 years later that I actually did believe, and that's a separate story that I'll tell you. But, but that's, that was my background. That's how I got started with God

Marty: Well, I, you know, from the very beginning, I, I hear the Christ in you, like the little boy who's, like not getting what he, you know, he's curious. He wants, he wants to know and, you know, not be BS'd either. Not just be, you know, like corralled, like into doing stuff that does-- nobody's willing to talk about. Like you wanted, you wanted to really have a, a meaningful understanding and rebelling against, you know, people that, that wanted to just control you. Like that, that's, that's the Christ in you right there. I see it

Bill: Hmm. Well, that wasn't the Christ they were talking about.

Marty: Well, I know.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: But

Bill: Yeah,

Marty: it's light.

Bill: too now,

Marty: But in the, in the broad sense, it's, it's, it's, it's light and light-seeking, you know? You're a s- you're a seeker. You've always been a seeker, and that's, you know, that's what-- that's the start of any spiritual journey

Bill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, so interesting. And so many of the books, I mean, I, I wasn't even a reader until I got sober. I'd, I'd read a few books prior to that. Prior to the age-- At the age of 27, prior to that, I'd read a few books, and they were all like war books and, um, a book on Willie Mays and something about John Kennedy and PT 109 and, um, and that sort of thing. And, and so I, I w- I read, and I was a good reader, but I didn't e-enjoy reading usually, and I didn't, I hadn't made it a habit. But once I got sober, the gift of desperation had me reading everything I could get my hands on to try to find some solutions that would actually calm the inner chaos. And, and so I started reading a lo- Richard Bach wrote a bunch of really great

Marty: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah

Bill: Og Mandino wr- wrote a bunch of great books, uh, that were very inspiring. And, uh, Emmet Fox, and I mean, I could go on and on and on and on and name all these books that, that began to just change me one page at a time as I opened up my mind and opened up my heart to the possibility that, you know, there's much, much more going on that, that, than, the three-dimensional reality and the five senses can, can really justify and logically explain

Marty: Yes. Yeah

Bill: And, and so as that continued to gradually evolve, I-- Well, my first wife died. I spent a couple years, stayed sober, didn't even think of drinking. Now I'm, now, now I'm seven years sober, I go in and out of these crazy relationships. And at nine years sober, I remarry, and it's a mistake. It's a big mistake, other than that we had a daughter together who I love, and I'm so glad that I, that, that I have in my life. But we were miserable together and, um, when the marriage ended, I hoped things would get better, but they got worse because she was really mad that I left the, the, the marriage. And I was living in such a high state of alert and vigilance and fear and anxiety and tension alternating with depression that I began to get, at 21 years sober, very desperate about my well-being and wondering if I could... I was scared to death that I was gonna repeat some of the same mistakes I'd been making, find myself in another crazy relationship.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So I became much more willing. And one day, a guy says-- A guy was sitting across from me that I was sponsoring in Al-Anon, and he kept talking about Jesus Christ and God. And as he's telling me about it, I'm being polite and I'm nodding, giving him-- trying to affirm that I'm hearing what he's saying. And I realize that he, he, sees me nodding, and he thinks that I am agreeing with him. So I had to clear that up for him. I said, "I, I, I, uh, I'm not nodding because I agree with you about Jesus Christ. I'm, I'm just nodding because I'm understanding what you're saying." And he said, "Why don't-- What, you don't believe in Jesus Christ?" I said, "No, this is not, this is not why I brought this up. I don't wanna have a conversation about Jesus Christ. Next thing I know, you're gonna be selling me solar power. No, thank you. I, just wanna let you know I'm understanding. I don't agree, and, and, and I don't wanna be misunderstood here."

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And he said, "Oh, well, tell me..." I mean, he's really into it. Now he becomes an evangelist, and he really wants me to believe in Jesus Christ. And he challenges me. He says, "I want you to read a book I said, "Okay, tell me, tell me about the book." And he said, "It's called The Urantia Book." I thought, "This is about a ranch?" "No, it's Urantia, U-R-A-N-T-I-A. And I think if you'll read this book, you'll believe in Jesus Christ too." I said, "No, thank you. I don't need another book to read." And, um, well, in the back of the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, and, you know, I'm 21 years sober. I mean, I'm a big book guy. I'm a, I'm an AA guy, so if it, if it's in the book, book, big book, I'm gonna do it. And he says, "In the back of the big book, there's this, this quote by Herbert Spencer that says something about contempt prior to investigation." I said, "Okay, bring me the book. I'll, I'll read it." Well, he brings it. It's 2,100 pages long.

Marty: I gotta do all this work to believe in Jesus Christ?

Bill: Or to just get him off my back and, and maybe we have an agreement that he'll quit talking to me about it if I'll do this. So I found it hard to get into, but I finally did read it, and once I did start reading it, I found about 300 pages into this book that I, that I was reading it as if it was the truth, and I don't know how that happened. I started reading it with a lot of skepticism. found a part of the book that I was very interested in. It's talking about the evolution of our planet. Very interested in the science behind that, and it was fascinating, it was logical, it made sense, and now everything that I'm reading, it feels like the truth.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So I, I read more, and more, and more, and then it gets into 600 or 700 pages about Jesus Christ, and by the time Jesus is crucified in the book, I'm weeping. And I realize something really profound and fundamental has changed inside of me And one of the concepts of the book is that there is a fragment in, of God inside each and every one of us Yeah. Referred to as in, in several different ways, but one of the ways it's referred to is the thought adjuster. But there's a fragment of God that's not us, but in us.

Marty: Uh-huh. Okay

Bill: A-and, we voluntarily agree to cooperate with it, we can tap into the resource power of it, of, of this, this spark of divinity inside of us. So that's where the concept really took hold for me,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and I can't say and wouldn't, wouldn't want you to lead you to, you or our listeners to believe that I'm a fervent Christian by any means. I'm not. But what I do consider myself to be is some- a follower of Jesus, and I, and I don't think that means that I have to do anything other than just be the best person I could possibly be and follow the inner guide knowing that I got a spark of divinity in me and that I can tap into it anytime I want to. And I do

Marty: Amen. Amen. I mean, Jesus said as much in the Sermon on the Mount. Yeah. Just be your natural self. You know, that's, um... But I mentioned-- I wanted to kinda Uh, go into a little bit this, this thing you, you mentioned earlier and now it's come back, like, well, at one point I'm interacting with all of this as a non-believer and resistant and all of that. And at another point I'm going, "Wait, was it just by chance that these things happened?" And I think that's, that's really interesting to see that, that there is a way to, you know, to look at our life and, uh, or the, the, you know, nature or any- anything that is v- devoid of spirituality. Um, there... That, that, that is a way to live, you know. It, it is doable. Um, and the... There's this, there, there-- You can equally well look at all of it as divine, um, and, and see the divine in it. And, and so yeah, though, you know, the, the fact that those things happened that, especially in that week, you know, you could say, "Well, no, that's just chance." You could. And when you look at it as, "Well, no, wait a minute, these are signs of divinity, uh, active in my life," it just, it just... It's a different way to look at it. It's, it's an enhanced way to look at. And it gives us resources, like when, like when life... I've-- The-- For me, I'm speaking for myself, when there are-- It's like there's just... I cannot control all of this. This relates to the, what AA says. And, and, and... But there's solace and there's power even, I would say, in s- in being able to say at those times like, "Well, it's in God's hands," you know? I'm, I can't, I can't fix this. I can't, you know, have... I don't have control of this. But knowing that it's in God's hands gives me some peace and, and hope and, and it takes me out of a whole bunch of mental, you know, mechanisms that are not helpful, that could actually make things go worse. You know, like it, it, it has me back off at times when I need to, and let things evolve the way they're meant to, you know, the way God-- according to God's will, so to speak. So, so there... And there's a lot more that we could say about the difference between looking at You know, like, uh, like I, I-- and Jesus says this too in the Bible, you know, that, um, you know, when you can look at it through the sort of childlike point of view, like, "Wow, what a miracle that, that the, the, y- yesterday it was a caterpillar, today it's a butterfly. That's amazing." Like, the, it's, it, it's a great way to live, you know? And even if you do know the science behind it, it, it, it's, it enhances and it, and it makes life a different thing than, than when you don't. So I just wanna, you know, like, I don't think that, you know, people are wrong to say, "No, it's just material stuff happening." But no, that's true. And it's also not wrong to say, "No, this, this is the divine in action. Look it." You know? So, uh, both of those are, are, are valid

Bill: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I, uh, m- m- my lens of the world changed after those 2 or 300 pages and, and the other thousands of pages that followed.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I've read, I've read it now at least twice fully from fr- cover to back and, and each time I read it I get re-inspired and it, it just makes all that difference for me

Marty: I mean, one of the biggest differences for me is to, to think of what's going on, like this evolution that we're talking about in, in a person or in nature, in history, in society, as the, the evolution of love, right? Love coming into the world, love changing things. And that I find gives me more to think about, more opportunities, more ways to, you know, to, to contribute than if it's just, if it's just deterministic, you know, it's just physical chemical processes working themselves out. Well, then I'm, I'm kinda at, what can I do then? You know? I don't have much access. I don't have any power in there. And when I, when I see like, well, no, the, you know, you could have a conversation, you could express your love, you could like, be c- take care and, and, and take care of, that that's gonna d- that's gonna have an impact and change the course of things. Like, wow, thank you. That gives me a lot more, you know, of, uh, incentive to be here even, you know?

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and for you, your story, as I mentioned on, at the top of this conversation,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: is dramatically different than mine. From-- I get the impression that you didn't have any trouble at all accepting the idea of God

Marty: That's, that's right. There was a time when I questioned it. So my, you know, uh, I grew up in a church family, and they were-- my parents were both well-educated. They, they weren't like, um, uh, fundamentalists at all. They, they, there, they knew that there has to be a way to, you know, that, to integrate religion or, or spirituality and science. My mom taught science in high school, you know. And, and so th- they were both, they were both, you know, they, it, they just have to work together. That was their point of view, and so I grew up with that point of view. And then in college, I started to question, you know, like do we, do we really need the religious side of it? What, what is that doing for us? You know, is, is it really true? And I went through a period of thinking, you know, be agnostic. Just, well, let me... I'm just gonna stay on the periphery of, you know, spirituality for a while and see if I really need it. But then, um, once I got out of school, uh, I was introduced by some friends to an Indian guru, a person who I would say is enlightened, like spends all her day in the presence of God, you know? And, and has powers that you, you don't, like that Jesus probably had, you know, to transform a situation with her love, just with her love. And, um, and, uh, in her presence, I experienced a f- you know, an, a bodily change as well as a n- intellectual and a s- and a soul change. But like it, it, it ran through my body, the experience of meeting her. Her, uh, when our eyes met, I w- it was like being, being hit by lightning. I mean, that's what it felt like. It really just startled my whole nervous system.

Bill: Wow!

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. It w- and, and, and at the same time as I was like in pa- in a kind of pain, I was also ecstatic, you know, like recognizing all this out here is made of love and there's nothing ultimately wrong in the universe. Like it, I was having... It was just like popping all inside of me, like firecrackers going off, and these- Um, in-- I was, I was 36, 36 years old, and, um, and, you know, so I got... This must have been-- Uh, the-- What-- My thought going home that day was, "This must have been what it was like for the apostles when they first met Jesus, and, you know, they were transformed and decided to follow him. What-- This must be the kind of power that he had or that the Buddha had," you know? Uh, this, and, and in-- And so there are people walking this planet today who have that same saintly power, you know, to transform. And, um, and so yes, and from that point on, I was definitely a believer again from, you know. And 'cause I, I was experiencing the divine, like, right... It's like in the Bhagavad Gita, I don't know if you know the, the famous scene where, uh Arjuna is going to ba- he's like, on his chariot ready to go into battle, and he's like, "I don't wanna do this. Like, what's the point to just kill each other? You know, I don't, I, I don't wanna do it." And, um, Krishna, Lord Krishna, is in the chariot with him and, and reveals his divinity to Arjuna and says, "You have to do what your dharma says. You are a warrior. This is what you're meant to do." And, and, and again, Arjuna has this, you know, painful, like, lightning shock experience. And I was like, "That's what I experienced with my guru." Exactly that, you know. And realized, uh, I, you know, to myself, I, I, I could go into my realizations that I got. But so yeah, uh, I'm, uh, I have these... I have a, a good, you know, not narrow-minded but open-minded upbringing, and then this, you know, direct experience of the divine. It, the, the, the, it has a name. It's called Divya Diksha, which means God descending into us. That's what they call it in, in Sanskrit when you meet a guru and you're transformed by her pr-

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: her presence. I, I got that, that experience of Divya Diksha. It's the divine directly communicated to me. And so yeah, um, ever since then, uh, no question I'm a believer

Bill: Hmm. Yeah. That experience a way converted you

Marty: Yeah, and I'm told that, that i- this is, this is something that my soul has been preparing for through many lifetimes. You know, that I was ready. I was ready for that to happen 'cause, you know, some people walk into the guru's presence and they don't experience anything. But I-- my soul is ready to have that opening.

Bill: Yeah

Marty: the way they tell the story Speaker: Are you looking for a way to apply IFS in your everyday life? The Compassionate Results Guidebook can help. It blends IFS with coaching to help you work with your parts, make self-led choices, and live in the world authentically. You can order your copy on Amazon or learn more at compassionateresultsguidebook.com. Now back to the episode

Bill: I thought of this earlier. I wanna say it out loud now that I can recall In my seeking, n- noticing that there were those who either had or claimed to have some sort of knowing, a connection, or an experience that, that superseded anything that I'd ever e- experienced before. And, I can, I can remember just wondering, what would, what would that be like? What would it be like to actually, for example, be enlightened and, and to not ever suffer again?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And, um, you know, I'm, I'm asking myself those kinds of questions time that life is 99% suffering for me. It's just the norm. And then I'd br- then I would encounter someone who apparently wasn't suffering, and it was baffling to me E- even saying that out loud now points to, uh, just states of diff- just the, the, the, the huge, the, the broad gradient of, of ex- of consciousness

Marty: Yeah

Bill: and, and what, what is experienced and what can be experienced. To go from so much suffering To, you know, and, and as I work with my IFS clients and, and work my, with my own parts, recognizing that I have parts that will pr- will, that will do everything they can to block me from attempting to have experiences that may disappoint me. And I think there was, there's been a, for me, there's been a lot of that that's gone on when it's come to practicing faith, practicing developing, being intentional about developing my, my, my... Developing the access to this, this much resource.

Marty: Yeah

Bill: Like, would it be too much? Would it consume me? Would it be, would I be, would I fall too far if I found myself up on that high mountain?

Marty: Yeah. Interestingly, uh, over the weekend, I was pi- I picked up the, a little booklet that was in this cabin where I was staying on a monast- uh, uh, on m- the grounds of a monastery. They have a hermitage, it's called. You can go to spend the weekend and contemplate and meditate and pray. And there was a little book there on the bookshelf, um, about this woman who was made a saint after she died quite young. She died very young, but she had written this, these notebooks, and they, they rescued those. And, um, uh, Thérèse de Lisieux is her name. She was a French b- monk, uh, woman. And, uh, and she, she came from the point of view that small is good. We are small, and God is great. And, and our t- our life is really just to recognize the, the sparks of divi- divinity and to, and to do our small part to f- to increase the divinity in the world, the goodness in the world. That's all, that's all that's required of us. And it was... I, I only read a, you know, a portion of this book, but I really found it uplifting to think like, yeah, I don't, I don't need to be, you know, Jesus himself. I just need to, as often as I can, live from that model that that's the best way to live. You know, and every little piece, you know, just like, uh, speaking kindly to the person in the, in the gym at this, you know, in the same locker area with me this morning, you know, and helping him. He dropped something, and I just picked it up. Like, that's all. That's all that's required. Just do your little part, you know, in this, in the grand scheme of things. And I... Anyway, so I think that's a good, a good way to look at it, frankly

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah I often remember an experience that I had, and this was before I had, had my-- what I guess I could call a conversion experience of reading that book and, and realizing that I was believing what I previously hadn't been able to believe before,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and not knowing how that could have happened. This was probably three years prior. I was working in a, an insurance office. I'd got my property and casualty insurance license, and I was trying to a-an insurance agency. And what can be expected in that industry is to make very, very, very little money for the first two or three years. And the money to be made in insurance happens when, when the clients that you get stick with you and they, they get renewals and all, and, and all the work that you did to get that very first policy in place and get that little pittance of a, of a commission from that,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: you get that again the next year, and the next year, and the next year every time they renew. And then if you have 10 clients, that happens 10 times the next year and 10 times the next year. if you have 20 clients by the year... Anyhow, that's the way it builds up.

Marty: Nice

Bill: I'm just-- I, I was-- I stuck it out for about two and a half years, and there were metrics that I needed to be meeting. I needed to sell this many policies a month in order for the insurance company that was basically sponsoring, uh, my-- the birth of my insurance agency to keep me in their office where I didn't have to pay rent, and I didn't have to buy equipment, I didn't have to have a staff. They were just trying to soften the blow for me, and, and in that way, their idea was that this is how they could get more, more of their insurance agents out in the world.

Marty: Yeah

Bill: Well, the guy, Dave was his name, that was in charge of the sales center, which is where I was working, he and I interacted, you know, every day for those two and a half years. And at some point du-during those two and a half years, we were just having a fairly relaxed, casual conversation, and he said, do you go to church?" And I was really surprised by his question because I'd never talked about church, and I don't-- I, wasn't aware of anything that, that I might have said or done that it would have indicated to him that I was going to church.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So I, I said, "I, I... Well, I don't go to church." And he said, "Well, you're a believer, right?" And I, I laughed and I said, "Well, I have a lot of beliefs." And he said, "But I mean, you're Christian, right?" And I said, "No. No, I was raised Catholic, but I never embraced any of those ideas." "Well, you believe in God, right?" I said, "Eh, I kinda, sorta." And he said, "I'm, I don't... I'm just baffled." "Why are you baffled?" He said, "Because I watch you live your life, and I've never seen anybody act more Christian before." And I took that as a very high compliment

Marty: It is. It is, yeah

Bill: Yeah. Didn't make me wanna be Christian, but it did make me good about the way I was living my life at that point

Marty: Yeah, which takes me back to, and maybe we can start to close on this, um, the, the m- mention that I made earlier about the higher power within us. Like, if, if, if, if we have listeners who don't... They, they're just like, "Stop the God talk, would you?" Fine. But notice within you that there...

Bill: way, yeah, I would've been one of those

Marty: Right? Right. So but notice that there, there, there are higher places within you from which to make the choices of, of in your life. You know, like there are, there are m- there are low, mean ways to make decisions or to treat people, uh, and there are, there are way... You know, like if you, if you say to yourself, "Well, what would, what, what are my values? Let me choose how to lead my day from those values." Well, that's a higher power within you, and that's all I would ask of anybody. As opposed to, "Well, I'm gonna make my decisions b- based on, you know, you know, what, what, you know, getting what I need right now without a care about how it impacts anybody else." Well, well, that's a lower, you know, because you're gonna need other people. And so, you know, you just, you know that you know that there's a higher place within you. Uh, access that. That's all

Bill: Okay. Why? Let me just be the advocate that's, that's, that, that I would've been authentically probably 30 years ago

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Bill: and say, "Why bother?" I mean, I just told you the story of the guy thinking I was Christian because, because I was just living my life the way I was. Why would I wanna, uh, why would I want to aspire to a higher

Marty: Well, I would, on the one hand, I would say try it and see if you don't get better results that way. That's, that's the main thing. You know, I th- I, I think you will, but I'm-- you have to try it and see for yourself. Um, th- that I wouldn't try and sell it to you because it's gonna be a harder road to hoe or because it's just right without any explanation. Try it. Try living from your highest values and see if you don't get better results, and that's the reason right there

Bill: And what are the results that someone might look towards to measure whether or not trying it actually has a payoff?

Marty: Um, better relationships

Bill: Better, you talking about different people that, that I'm gonna be related to or an, an improvement in the quality of the relationships that I have?

Marty: Both.

Bill: Okay

Marty: Both. A richer experience of life You know, like, like things will taste better. You'll, you'll appreciate a nice summer breeze when it comes through. Like you d- like you... Those sorts of appreciation for the richness of human existence and, um, and peace of mind, that liberation that you were talking about, being free,

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: right? Being free of the gobbledygook that, that we, that we suffer from so much. Those-

Bill: mental chatter, the inner, inner chaos.

Marty: Exactly

Bill: So what, when you say try it, what's the actionable behind that? How would I know I was trying it?

Marty: To write down your top 10 values and, and then look at what it would be like to live each one. Like, what would it actually... Picture it. If I were being free, if I were being generous, if I were being adventurous, whatever your values are, the top

Bill: is my value. is my value. Freedom is my value

Marty: Then, then look at, well, what would that look like? What would I be doing? You know, what, how would that show up in my life? And then go live those, and that's what, that's what, that's the action I would take

Bill: I know we need to wrap up, but let's just take one of those. Let's just say f- the value is freedom.

Marty: Mm-hmm

Bill: And I think that I've been-- Let's just say that I'm a person who thinks that I've been living according to that value.

Marty: Mm-hmm

Bill: And, and the way I think I'm living that value is that when somebody tries to impede on my freedom, I get real rough with them. I, I t- I make sure that they, there's, they know in no uncertain terms that they're not, they're not gonna steal my freedom. So that, that's not what you're pointing at. What's the difference here?

Marty: Well, that doesn't sound free to me if, if you're caught in a, you know, uh, that sort of a situation out of, you know, like letting them know, being gruff and mean with them. Like that, that doesn't sound like freedom to me

Bill: Right. However, to me it does if I'm in that place. Like if values of freedom, what that means to me is it's the most, one of the most valuable things in my l- in my life is to be free. And if anybody tries to impede on that or gets in the way of that,

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: whatever wrath I have for them

Marty: Well, that's, it's the, it's the part about the, the wrath. That, that's not coming... That's, that's, that's a, uh, what is it? It's a forced, it's not a free. I, you, I would, I,

Bill: Oh,

Marty: I think

Bill: You're pointing to the inner, inner, energy, the freedom, the freedom inside how I feel, how free I feel inside when I am being who I'm being in the world

Marty: Yeah. I mean, I think you're, uh, some- you're on the right track to, yes, don't let anybody steal your freedom. And then look at like, okay, if, if that's to hold, then how do you set that up? Like, continue along the lines of freedom. Get even more free in your communication with that person such that they continue to value your freedom instead of being at war with you. That's not free if you're, if you have to punch them out to get your freedom. They're gonna come punch you out. Like, the- you're not free yet.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: So get even freer in the sense that they will foster what you want to do rather than be against you. That's not free

Bill: So I wanna point at one more thing, and that is that from a very early age, we all have awareness of what we call right and wrong and, and currently what I refer to this as is the internal guidance system.

Marty: Uh-huh

Bill: And I believe that that internal guidance system has been installed and is calibrated by the divine spark inside

Marty: Okay

Bill: And if I can tap into that inner guidance system, I-- it's like almost like following a compass. There is a true north, and I can feel it.

Marty: Yeah

Bill: And if my intention is to be true north and I'm heading southwest, I feel that too.

Marty: Yeah

Bill: I don't think the guidance system is designed to hurt me, but it hurts when I'm not focused on the true north,

Marty: Yes

Bill: and it feels really good to be focused on true north

Marty: I hear you. Uh, just this morning, my landlord in Mexico wrote me and said, "Are you coming back next year?" And, uh, he's asked me before, and I put off the question 'cause I hadn't gotten in touch with the inner compass yet. And so I just took a second. I was like, "Okay, focus on w- where is the inner guide taking me? Yes. Uh, yeah, I'll be there next year." And after I wrote that to him, I don't know, I just felt great. Like, yeah, that's right. It, it feels right. I'm free again

Bill: So now when we go back to your suggestion to try it out, maybe now there's a way that, that's the listener who's interested in that advice

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: how to go about doing it. when making a decision, when faced with a choice,

Marty: Yeah

Bill: where's true north? What, feels good and right and aligned from inside and outside? And

Marty: Yes.

Bill: that, when you compromise, like, "No, I'm gonna go this way because I don't wanna get somebody's criticism. I wanna avoid judgment," or, "I don't wanna get in trouble," or, "I don't wanna be judged over here." are all indications of southwest other than true north.

Marty: Well said

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. So to calibrate and notice how that if there is an internal guidance system, how is it communicating with me? And it, and it's as simple as when I'm uncomfortable, there's something to look at. There's a, there's a correction that in, in direction that needs to happen.

Marty: Exactly

Bill: Great conversation, and I'm sure it probably made a lot of people uncomfortable. And if you listened the whole time despite your discomfort, thank you.

Marty: Yeah. Thanks for that. That's a really good, um, way to, uh, to put it into action and to simplify it. I said list your 10 values. I like your just, no, just follow true north, period. That's great

Bill: Oh, I like yours too. Knowing what your values are, defining them with, and having clarity like that. is an indication of true north as well. Compassion is an indication of true north.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah

Bill: compassion, con- curiosity. I don't know. Let's be curious. That's a- an indication of, of true north.

Marty: Great

Bill: I'm feeling connected. That's an indication of true north. There's a lot of indicators of true north. And, and suffering in any form is an, is an indication that you're not true north. All right. Great conversation. Till next week. Thanks, listener. See you next time. Speaker 2: We appreciate who you are that you would be listening to this podcast and want to acknowledge all those parts of you that yearn for the experience of the true you. If you like this episode, click like, share it with others, and be sure to subscribe. Listen again next week for the newest episode. Check show notes for a transcript and a link to resources, including a link to let us know if you'd like to be a guest on our podcast. Speaker 3: Thank you for listening and going on this journey with us back to the true you