Finding Myself as a Writer

Susan: One of the things a coach wants to do is unpack the resistance to full self-expression. In our resistance we could also call that our fears is a lot of information. We don't wanna just push past resistance . No good can come of two people trying to be heard when they're both triggered. ' cause they're not able to hear, they just wanna be heard. whenever you get triggered, I think that means we need to go back and go, Hey buddy. And hold him like a much loved child. it's like reclaiming a part that didn't feel safe, but now it is safe to feel vulnerable.

Marty: Welcome everyone to the True You Podcast. Especially happy to welcome Susan Campbell to our as a guest today. And of course, bill Tierney is with me as usual. And Martin Kettle Hut executive coach and author. And I want, I think it's good when everybody can hear everybody's voices before we get started, so at least say something by way of, hello so that the audience hears all our voices.

Bill: Go ahead.

Marty: start, Susan?

Susan: Hi, I am, I'm Susan and Hi Martin. Hi, bill. We're just beginning to get to know each other here.

Marty: That's right.

Bill: Yeah. And I'm Bill Tierney co-host of the TrueU podcast, and delighted to have you here, Susan.

Marty: Yes, it's a big honor. So let me start out by, in introducing Susan SU she's a psychologist. Susan Campbell has worked and as a corporate trainer and relationship coach for 60 years now. Just imagine a former professor at the University of Massachusetts and frequent guest lecturer at Harvard, Stanford and UCLA. She's author of 12 books on the topic of relationships and human communication, her groundbreaking book, the Couple's Journey, as a Path to Wholeness. Published in 1980, the first popular book that introduced mainstream audiences to the idea of relationship as a spiritual journey. She's been featured on such national TV shows as CNN's News, light Night, good Morning America, and the Dr. Dean Del Show. She's currently, a relationship coach, speaker, workshop leader and trainer of professional coaches. it's quite an honor to have you with us, Susan.

Susan: Thank you, Martin.

Marty: Yeah. One of the things that we are interested in is actually having you coach us, to, to witness some of your latest learning and teach and to really get into the practices that, that that have been effective and useful and interesting to you. not sure how to get into that though. What do you think?

Susan: can you thi can you think a few, when you think right now of your recent life, there something that's coming up right now that just feels like troublesome or like you didn't speak what you really. Meant to speak, you got a response from somebody that you didn't, you wish you hadn't have got, kind of thing.

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: something that you couldn't get. So we can just, we can start with whatever is there for you then I'll guide you to

Marty: Okay.

Susan: more deep, more deeply into that. Because the first, piece of work that I always wanna do with somebody is get you into your present felt experience get intimate with yourself around that. That'll be what I'm working toward. So start with anything that's like a memory or a feeling or a question in your head, something like that.

Marty: Okay. Bill, you welcome to jump in here

Bill: Yes, I'm, I'm thinking of some things as well. Do you have an idea, Marty?

Marty: not just yet.

Bill: Oh, okay. Well, I do have one and I'm, I'll just say that it feels a little dangerous to, to talk about it, especially given we're recording it. Uh, and yet I'm willing. Yeah. Would you?

Marty: for your bravery.

Susan: And just maybe. Bill, thank you first for volunteering and then when you say dangerous, what do you notice in your body?

Bill: A tightening in my belly, busy thinking.

Susan: let's unpack some of the busy thinking. If you just back, breathe a little bit and witness some of the words going in your head right now we call it in your head, but

Bill: Wherever they, wherever thoughts reside.

Susan: Wherever thoughts

Bill: Yeah. Yeah.

Susan: What's

Bill: Do you wanna hear those thoughts?

Susan: Yeah. What are some of

Bill: So there's

Susan: quotes of your actual self-talk?

Bill: and I quote, I'm afraid that if I talk about this, the person that. Is involved, will know I'm talking about them and they're gonna be offended.

Susan: Yeah.

Bill: I.

Susan: Stay, just feel the feelings along with that. That's a fear story and I like to help people go a little further into that. That's a fear story. And you might have some associations. Has this ever happened you before when you've gotten caught? about somebody and they, and it turned out badly.

Bill: oh yeah. Definitely. Do you wanna hear about that or no?

Susan: yeah. Yeah. But if it know, if the, if you can bring back the actual memory, I think this would be a useful thing

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: the, just to explain to the audience. One of the things a coach wants to do is unpack the resistance to full self-expression. So when Bill said dangerous, I hopped on that 'cause there's some resistance there. And in our resistance we could also call that our fears is a lot of information.

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: we don't wanna just push past resistance, skip over resistance.

Bill: Right.

Susan: so we've got a memory of something that kind of did turn out to be in your mind. Dangerous.

Bill: it was painful.

Susan: was, what? Tell, you

Bill: it goes back,

Susan: narrate

Bill: it, it goes back a ways. I'm a veteran of marriage. I'm in my third marriage now, so in my second marriage, my wife was concerned about what others knew about us, about our financial situation. About our, any, like our intimacy, our decision making, our certainly our troubles. And in her, in, in the company of others. And in front of her, I mentioned something about our financial situation. We were having a home built, and I was completely unaware that she was alarmed by that that, that triggered her and after the people that we were entertaining left the house. She lit into me and she was furious that I had given away information about our financial situation. And I felt completely hi, uh, what's the word? I, I didn't expect it. I,

Susan: Yeah.

Bill: I was surprised and shocked and felt misunderstood, and I felt angry, and yet didn't dare let myself express that anger.

Susan: So let's go back to that memory if you can, right now. But let's create a little bit more of a safe container in inside of you, particularly for going back and. Experiencing that a little more fully, we could say in a way that's a mini trauma or shock to your system that may need a little more movement of the energy that could be stuck there. 'cause you're still cautious about, if I disclose this, what might happen.

Bill: Yeah,

Susan: so you know, your wife, lights in, your second wife there,

Bill: yeah.

Susan: she lights into you and accuses you of some things. And just first, let's breathe so that we can make, like I was starting to say, a safe

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Susan: So you can feel your body is your kind of internal self support feel, your weight being supported by the chair. Feel your breathing is something that is generally can be calming. So it's, we're not trying to get you more agitated necessarily, but you're calm enough to bring back some of that anger and that shock that you felt and that, I think you've said something like feeling misunderstood.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah.

Susan: you're letting some of those feelings come back and we just want you to re-experience the pain and the shock, and tell me a little bit more about what's happening now for you.

Bill: Well, with your guidance, I feel really calm and peace inside and I mean, I, and I feel very comfortable sharing as much as you'd like to know about it.

Susan: Okay. So in a way that's, that's nice to know because you're pretty much in the witness mode as you, let's witness this younger married guy. Wife's just criticized or something like that. so we're gonna, we're gonna take the approach of the witness and just see if you can feel something toward him, like empathy or of simpatico or

Bill: Well, yeah, certainly lots of compassion. I, given that I was him, I.

Susan: Yeah.

Bill: what kind of pressure I was under and how confusing life was at that time. And yeah, I just, I feel a lot of compassion toward him.

Susan: Good, good. So in, in a way we're having sources of feeling right now, the compassion of the witness, but also you just brought back some of the tough times, some of the pressures you were feeling at that

Bill: That's right.

Susan: How many years ago was this approximately, would you say?

Bill: I have to do math. 30, let's just call it 30.

Susan: Yeah. A lot younger,

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: a lot less life experience.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Susan: the pressure. So you're feeling partly that. 30-year-old guy,

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: make up

Bill: call it 35. 35.

Susan: just to give people a, something to visualize.

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: And also it helps you visualize yourself at a different age. So was going through stuff and can you sense into stress of his existence

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Susan: and at the same time you're feeling something toward him. Empathy, compassion.

Bill: Yeah. Mostly I'm feeling that empathy and compassion. I'm not feeling much of the stress that he experienced, but I, I can remember back into.

Susan: Yeah, it might be good to just. Let yourself feel a little bit, if you can, not much of the stress 'cause it was as long ago and you really are pretty centered in your body now and

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: So we're not trying to get a catharsis of any sort.

Bill: yeah.

Susan: what we do wanna do though is move some of that energy.

Bill: Okay.

Susan: is there anything that, that younger guy needs from. Like I'll say the older bill, the Wiser Bill. Any words or feelings or anything that can come there for you? Just being aware that you have this younger self that maybe is a little bit tender around how much should I disclose in public? So let's bring that theme back. So what would you do for him to help him with that feeling of danger? Possible danger.

Bill: I think the first thing I'd wanna do is validate that what he's feeling. It makes sense given the circumstances.

Susan: Yeah, so imagine yourself saying that to him. You can do it out loud or just silently, whatever works.

Bill: And by the way, I'm a little self-conscious that I have my eyes closed, but I'm gonna keep 'em closed.

Susan: No, I think it's good.

Bill: Okay?

Susan: it's good. It's, it helps you stay connected to yourself. Most people would need that.

Bill: Yeah. Please ask me for the last,

Susan: So you're gonna validate his experience either

Bill: yeah.

Susan: or just silently just let me know.

Bill: yeah. That was, uh, I, I would say something along the, yeah, that was a big surprise, wasn't it? A big ambush. And, uh, it's not surprising that you're feeling a little bit shocked and alarmed and, and panicked right now.

Susan: Yeah. You're being like a good coach now is what I'm thinking. And I believe we all have an inner

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Susan: you know, an inner wise voice, so keep with

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Susan: anything else after validating young, younger bill's experience, he might

Bill: You know, something that he didn't know that I know now that I could offer him would be to know that his amygdala's gotten triggered, he's into fight, flight, or freeze, and that panic feeling that he's had, he's not gonna be able to think his way through it. He's gonna have to come back into a present moment and back into his body again, and help, help himself relax.

Susan: so maybe now that you're a aware of that, if you had that whole thing to do over in that moment when I think you said you were ambushed,

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: What might you do differently, with the help of your inner coach? Maybe figure that out.

Bill: Um, a couple things. One, when things are back to calm again between my wife and I. I would negotiate a pre agreement that when I get hijacked internally like that, that I that it's okay for me to me to leave and go find my, my safe space again before I come back into it.

Susan: Yeah. So you'd try to get, once things were calm between you and he, she you try to get an agreement that you are both triggered. 'cause she was triggered too, I'm

Bill: Oh, sure. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Susan: and then that triggered you. That's the way it And no good. So now I'm making a teaching point here. No good can come of two people trying to be heard when they're both triggered. 'cause they're not able to hear, they just wanna be heard.

Bill: I can validate that Susan being married three times. Yes.

Susan: Yeah. You're a veteran, as you said,

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: so imagine your yourself, being able to Stop what's going on. Could you even imagine, let's say, going back and stopping what's going on and saying, and being present enough to realize, let's say you had that agreement being present enough to realize you needed to take some safe space for yourself before continuing with the talk.

Bill: I can imagine it. Yeah,

Susan: Can you imagine what might you have said if you could

Bill: well,

Susan: bring your wiser self to bear on that situation?

Bill: wiser self equipped with all the lessons learned and, and all the skills that I have now.

Susan: yeah.

Bill: Yeah, I'd say

Susan: what

Bill: I might just say something like, uh, wow, what I'm experiencing inside right now is a lot of chaos and upset, and I need, and really need to take that space right now to, to come back, to call him again before we continue this conversation.

Susan: Okay, just notice how you feel saying that even all these years later, what's that? How's that feel in your body?

Bill: I, I remain calm in my body. I'm sorry.

Susan: have some emotions? Any emotions?

Bill: fear.

Susan: Uhhuh?

Bill: Yeah. Even that seems scary. Knowing how reactive she was to everything personally. She took everything how she could be so toxic and, and go into attack mode.

Susan: yeah. And what you're bringing up here too is whenever you say anything in an intimate context like that, you don't know how the other person's gonna react. So let.

Bill: I'm, I know, the 30 5-year-old me certainly figured, had enough experiences with her that could accurately predict how she was gonna react.

Susan: Except when you were disclosing that stuff about your finances in the social

Bill: That I didn't, wasn't prepared for.

Susan: Missed it there. And we 'cause we do, we're just being ourselves innocent innocently. Then you get surprised,

Bill: know, and I learned, I've really learned it wasn't safe in that marriage to do that, to be to just be me and be relaxed.

Susan: So there's a guy in there, a, older, a younger version of yourself, maybe obsolete. Now, given you have, a different partner and new life, who carries that fear of having a bad reaction to what you

Bill: It sure does. Yeah. Even with my very kind and kindhearted and loving gentle wife,

Susan: yeah.

Bill: you are still there.

Susan: Sure. So let's call that your tender part.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Susan: ' cause I think most of us have some vulnerable tender part like that could actually run our lives if we weren't careful. But course, you make your living. Doing truth telling and so forth. you know, you're, you're on a path.

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: but it could actually, for some people had that experience that you had could make them extremely inhibited, to speak anything that was at all, risky now,

Bill: That's right.

Susan: let's but let's honor the growth you've had, but also there's that tender part still in there.

Bill: Yeah. Who still gets surprised and did recently in this experience that I thought of.

Susan: yeah. Now, I don't know if you wanna go to that experience now and process that, but we've done, we've done a piece here where what I, if I was gonna close it now, I would just have you feel your connection with that tender part and bring some more compassion to him.

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: And you're in a sense owning that there is some tenderness still afoot in your

Bill: Yeah. He's still with me.

Susan: makeup Uhhuh.

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: And how do you feel owning that he's still with you?

Bill: Oh I feel good about it. I feel good knowing, I've known that, I've been aware of that when this thing that I'm talking about thinking of happened last week, that became very clear.

Susan: Uhhuh

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: would you like to go further with the thing that, that happened last

Bill: Well, I, yeah, sure. I can, I can just, I can just say that it was in a partnership context I thought that we were both clear on our roles and our intentions and and I was being unguarded relaxed and delivering information. That I was consciously aware that it could and has landed this kind of information. This feedback can land as a criticism and fight a surprising, like a defensive reaction. But I, for whatever reason, I didn't expect it. And that's exactly what happened. There was a defensive reaction and so my withdrawal, my avoidance kicked in. I survived it with a facade and, within moments of the activation, got out of it, but then got out of the current situation. But then it took me at least 36 hours to really work all the way back until I, I felt relaxed and comfortable being around anybody else again.

Susan: Yeah, so in a sense we could say. Once again, now this person wasn't aggressive. They were defensive, but it was still an unwanted surprise. of our communication results in unwanted surprises that we're not prepared for.

Bill: I, yes.

Susan: so your nervous system is still got some energy around that one. You tried to give this person feedback, right?

Bill: I suppose,

Susan: are you gonna say?

Bill: I'm just thinking of the 30 year anniversary in getting real chapter three, freedom, another word. Yeah.

Susan: I remember that one.

Bill: Where the man is stumbling over his words. He's nervous at the dinner. You wrote about this and he refers to the 30 year war. makes a joke out of it. He never gets to finish what he's gonna say. His wife is hurt and she stands up courageously and says, this isn't okay. I'm not gonna let this pass.

Susan: Yeah. Yeah. That was a great moment

Bill: was, it was. Yeah. Anyhow, I'm thinking of that right now because he was, I'm, I'm, I've got myself in his shoes. Like he, he had all these positive intentions. He thought things were cool, he was nervous about, but he's only nervous because of the awkwardness of delivering this kind of intimate message to his wife in front of an audience. It is the way I read the story and he's surprised when it just all falls apart and now she's mad at him that I'm really relating to that.

Susan: Yeah. It's it's a similar situation

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: kind of things happen all the time and even more so in marriage, business partners, that, that kind of thing. I call those the obligatory relationships in life. The ones that you have to make work

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: till you end them in some way. But so this was a business partner this last incident that you happened a week

Bill: It is a volunteer position. But yeah, I would say it's in a,

Susan: a

Bill: yeah. Yeah.

Susan: Yeah. So it wasn't your life

Bill: I would also consider them to be a friend. Yeah. A good,

Susan: Uhhuh.

Bill: a good friend in fact.

Susan: Yeah. So you got triggered, did you, when you got that defensive response.

Bill: yes.

Susan: So let's go back to what that felt like.

Bill: Okay.

Susan: See, I won't make you go into the,

Bill: It's okay. I, I'm really trusting you and I'm really,

Susan: he's, what he said. 'cause I'll,

Bill: yeah.

Susan: I would ask you what, what did you hear, and then what did you feel,

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: and then what did your mind do with that? So

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: what you do with that direction. Start with what you,

Bill: I think the first thing,

Susan: or emotional

Bill: yeah, the first thing that happened when I was, when I was triggered, when I noticed the defensiveness was that I felt fear. I,

Susan: huh Did you know you were triggered then when you felt the fear,

Bill: yeah.

Susan: you actually could be aware. Now see, so you've had more life experience with this stuff, so you can actually some, at some level say, oh, I'm triggered,

Bill: Yeah, I was aware of that. I wouldn't say, let me just give a percentage. I'd say that I was probably 30% focused on, oh, I'm scared, and 70% focused on, oh, they're.

Susan: Okay. Okay. just notice how you feel saying that as you bring yourself back to the memory. that, got a little power to it, doesn't it?

Bill: It sure does.

Susan: Yeah.

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: They're mad at me.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah.

Susan: I, yeah,

Bill: mad at me. And yeah, that's when it felt immediately dangerous. It felt very dangerous immediately.

Susan: yeah. So what's that like in your body at the time then? And go back to that memory?

Bill: Tightening, most of me wanted to just, it was, it was over zoom. Most of me wanted to just end the end of the conversation and run away.

Susan: Yeah. So let's into that part that, once again we'll call that your tender part, the part that didn't wanna endure what was coming at you. There's some pain there. We each have our own version of emotional pain, but wanting to get out of there. So that was that sort of a, an impulse to get outta there

Bill: yeah.

Susan: and to end it.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Susan: Yeah. So feel what that was like.

Bill: Withdraw, get some distance, get safe again.

Susan: So as you witnessed that part, can you feel some tenderness toward this week ago, bill? No, that was rough.

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: But that is also, that's that part of me again, no, that does get hurt when somebody's upset with you. Is there any self-talk about that? I.

Bill: Am I, are you asking me if I'm making up?

Susan: yeah. Any self, like you're making up any stories

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: no. Either. Either. I, I'm not safe or I better get outta here, or I'm not oh, I did something wrong. Just any

Bill: yeah it's like along the lines of, uh, in, in, in the leadership position that I am in that relationship, what why wasn't I able to stay calm? Why wasn't I able to stay in what IFS would call self energy? And be, and just be even about it and recognize that they were having a problem and why couldn't I be support to them like I am with my clients and then my groups and what was different about that. And, and so it strikes me as curious, but it also, there's a, there's an edge, there's a bit of edge of self-criticism too.

Susan: A little cri, critical edge, but also curiosity. Yeah. As you noticed that, maybe there is an edge of any feelings about that?

Bill: Oh sure. Disappointments still fear some anger. Yeah. At, at the unfairness of it to be, uh, anger at being misunderstood. Anger at be at, at. Being treated in a manner that reflected, um, an unfair assumption. Mm-hmm. A ju and yeah, to have it justified based on something that wasn't accurate, felt so unfair.

Susan: Yeah. there is a, there's a part of you that's sensitive to being like, we could call it unjustly accused, misunderstood.

Bill: absolutely not appreciated for my intentions, my, my actual authentic, positive intentions. It's not like I was pretending to be professional and nice. I, I felt like I was being very professional and there was not nice, but I, I also felt like I was being kind and, um. And oh, and also, even though I was recognized that there was the possibility that they might be defensive and offended by the, the feedback, we were there for that reason to give feedback so that they could improve. And I trusted them to be able to take it. And so the anger also comes from, I trusted you and now I,

Susan: Yeah.

Marty: Okay.

Susan: You've got quite a, quite a few reasons to be shocked by that.

Bill: Yeah,

Susan: and so that you, and that feeling right there Oh. Of anger shock some, Hey I didn't do anything wrong. That's what I'm reading into,

Bill: yeah.

Susan: it all pretty impeccably, and

Bill: There was no malice.

Susan: got a bad response.

Bill: Exactly. There is that. No, the little boy would say,

Susan: yeah.

Bill: not my fault. I didn't mean to and, but the full grown man would say there was no malice intended here.

Susan: Yeah, but let's go back to the little boy now. When in your young time

Bill: Oh,

Susan: has this been a relevant issue for you? Because that's the part that really needs some compassion and some movement of those feelings.

Bill: Yeah. That 30 5-year-old we visited in my second marriage was influenced by the, a much, much younger version of myself that was brutally mistreated as a young, young child, physically and, and emotionally abused and neglected and, uh, misunderstood and blamed and treated unfairly.

Susan: Yeah. That's a lot of pain to let in. I know. I know you. Just using labels right now. But let's go into that a bit, bill, which means first back in touch with that witness that can feel compassion for this young guy who was abused. So breathing, feeling the chair, holding you. Then voluntarily bringing back. So it's not like you're triggered by some relationship that you know, all of a sudden you're overtaken by the, some of those feelings of being abused you are now voluntarily going back to, some, something not. Too vivid, but just that general feeling that you had a lot

Bill: yeah.

Susan: a child, you know, danger, danger around every

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Susan: type of feeling. like that?

Bill: yeah. Vacillation between, forgetting that I needed to be careful and then having it. Really, uh, confirmed in a painful way that I, that I couldn't afford to be, to be, uh, just

Susan: You. You, yeah. You had to be careful and not spontaneous.

Bill: That's right.

Susan: Yeah. So this guy, this. So if you can just feel some of those feelings voluntarily, this helps you expand your capacity to feel emotional pain. Which is just part of life, but too much too soon.

Bill: right.

Susan: got

Bill: That's right.

Susan: was not you wanted to feel or oughtta have to feel as a youngster. And so you probably, had some defenses up kids do, which is functional

Bill: That's right.

Susan: and Yeah. But that kid is still. Alive that in you. whenever you get triggered, I think that means we need to go back and go, Hey buddy. Oh yeah. And hold him like a much loved child that

Bill: Mm.

Susan: yours. No, just you just dip into it. Each time we get triggered, back into that. that was neglected and abandoned by you and rightly during those years, but now you can let him join your wholeness. It's like

Bill: Hmm.

Susan: reclaiming a part

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: that didn't feel safe, but now it is safe to feel vulnerable. Before you speak something where you don't know what's gonna come back at you and you already have got that I get you already were able to bring that vulnerability into the moment and not just act, okay, I'm just gonna be spontaneous. So bringing those inner child tender parts actually gives depth and dimension to our present personality. And I get that you've already integrated a lot of that, but it's still tender, isn't

Bill: It is. It is.

Susan: It is. And I feel it. I feel tears behind my eyes because we're all connected, know you're little boy is everybody's little boy in

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: way. the, not exactly the same story, but no, there's something tender in us.

Bill: I love what you said there about, about bringing him in into the wholeness of who I am. And what I love about that is that that word whole is, is where heal comes from. Heal

Susan: Yeah.

Bill: to wholeness.

Susan: Yes. Yeah. Thank you for picking up on that and bringing it to everybody's attention.

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: Yeah.

Bill: Hmm.

Susan: I'm just, we're coming out of this and we're feeling a little more tender. All of us who are witnessing you right now.

Bill: Yeah. And that's not a bad thing that.

Susan: I know, that's why I do this work, it enhances my aliveness and my connection with human beings.

Bill: Susan, thank you so much. Very,

Susan: what a great idea to have me work with

Bill: yeah. And, and.

Susan: and thank you for, re revealing so much there, bill. That made all the difference.

Bill: And I'll just say that if the person that I was concerned about revealing this to about listening and has some stuff up, I trust that they, I do trust them. That they know what to do with the thing that, with what might get a activated in them. And I invite, I would invite them to have a conversation with me about it.

Susan: How do you feel saying that

Bill: Courageous and I feel strong.

Susan: a little

Bill: I just,

Susan: underneath there,

Bill: there's a little fear in there, but.

Susan: that now you've integrated your courage and your fear and then it comes across.

Bill: and these aren't the words that you used but you, the language that you were using helped me to affirm that really doing this kind of work, and the reason I've been doing it for so many years is because by doing it, I increase my capacity to be with what's uncomfortable and previously was overwhelming.

Susan: That's exactly the words that I would like to have said. Thank you.

Bill: Well, you said them. They got into me, you, your words not

Susan: them somehow.

Bill: exactly that. Yeah.

Susan: yeah. It for, so the sales pitch for everybody it expands your capacity to experience life to the fullest and to also be afraid of taking risks, because even if it turns out badly, you've got someplace to go within yourself that's gonna be mighty useful to your healing and integration, making yourself a bigger

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Susan: From all those times

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Susan: things don't turn out well.

Bill: And we've all had.

Susan: really a lot of value in, in working with the feelings about, disappointment and anger and all of those reactions.

Bill: thank you. Such a generous offering that you just that you just gave me. I, I just so appreciate it. Thank you. And Marty, thanks for the idea.

Marty: Yeah. Can I just reflect a little bit and maybe ask a question? It's very clear. And I just wanna just reflect this for all the listeners, that slowing it down, slow it down. Like we went through, upon eggshells or layers of the onion. Of the onion, right?

Susan: Yeah.

Marty: and that's what it takes. It takes really just, getting. wi willing to wait to, hang on. Let's investigate every part of this, every energy that you're feeling. I think we live in a society that wants to speed ahead so fast that we miss all this richness in all this healing. Ultimately this wholeness that is there. And, if we would just slow down and so then secondly you use the word witness, which is I had, I like that word. That's the word that we use in my spiritual tradition that, that I don't want to call it a part it's like an underlying who we are can step back into. Metaphorically speaking to, to see all of this, to be with all of this so that the healing can happen or so that the recognition can come and I that takes slowing down to,

Susan: Yeah.

Marty: and at the same time, here's where my question comes in. When you first asked us to reflect, you know what? Recently communication had been, I would call it incomplete, right? I'm, I try very, I work very hard at it I am really committed. 'cause I prefer the feeling of completing things. I don't like to have stuff hanging out, that I hasn't been resolved and so I'm very diligent about it. But when you first asked the question, a relationship came to mind immediately and I hesitated because it's not. A recent thing, it's a friend fallen out. And it happened two-ish years ago. And then as as you continued I was like, searching for what, what's more recent? What could I bring up that's more recent? And that just kept pressing itself forward and so and so I just wanna relate this also to. As you were coaching Bill, I was thinking about, sometimes it's, 'cause I work with people, sitting in a corporate office. They've only got an hour that they've let people know, don't disturb me. So that they can get some coaching and they're very reluctant to slow it down and. Create the space for the witness to arrive and, and to really go deep into things since they, they want, something quick. And this friend of mine also, he's you're, I apologized for, I did something, I lost my temper with him and I apologized and it didn't work like it. He said, it's gonna take me a while. And you know what and I understood. I gave him space and then we came back to it and I said, you know what, if we wanted, we could heal this right now. And so my question is about what to do with the, this fast and not, people needing more time, not wanting to be confronted in the moment because they gotta get back to work or it, they just, this friend of mine, so you, do you see where I'm coming from?

Susan: Yeah. There's a difference. There's you wanting, at least in this moment, and let's say that same person is like with your ex friend. We'll call him in a way you want more of something. But I don't know if it's a he or she. I think

Marty: It's a he and his name is.

Susan: Yeah. And he isn't ready. So this is this is a whole other dimension of our work. And I would call that some way of holding and honoring that we have different rhythms and paces. That's gonna bring up something in you of, I wanna get this finished. So in a way, you wanna slow things down, but you want it to finished too.

Marty: That's right. That's right.

Susan: he, he has a somewhat different pace than you. That doesn't mean though, that you can't knock on the door every now and then. your friend and what you're feeling. I heard you say a minute ago, we could just handle this now. I would've recommend saying that to him. I don't know if you did or not.

Marty: It was, no, those weren't the words. But it might have felt like that to him.

Susan: It felt like that more revealing of how vulnerable you are, how the pain that you feel, not. Not having him in the way you did before, not having the relationship you had, just being as transparent as you can about you. But there's a phrase that I use in the getting real work, staying on your own side of the net when you start, and also relating versus controlling. And when you start, oh. Coaching another person like a cheerleader. You can do it. Let's do it. That often. Sometimes I should say that isn't experienced the way you mean it. The best thing you can do when there's a, an real, I call it an honest difference. There are some times when you should put pressure on somebody and so forth, but let's just for. Purposes here. This is an honest difference. He really apparently isn't ready. But maybe if you showed up just a little more spacious yourself, this energy,

Marty: Yeah.

Susan: I'm gonna, I wanna show you what's inside of me and you might experience that as pressure are. And at the same time, I'm doing my best not to put pressure on you. Respect your timing, and. Our friendship was so important to me and I really miss it, and the normal things that you would say in your position, being careful about cheerleading. And as far as the executives you might have to get above the level of the problem. Okay. So I'd like to, serve you better and, my way of serving you would be, could we move a little more slowly so it could pause and feel each thing that you're saying here, 'cause words just don't, WW words aren't the trick here. They're not the answer. It's what's beneath the words. We can somehow find a way to reach each other here, you and your client. You've given him the, maybe you've already given him the sales pitch for why slow is better, but knowing, and maybe he's still because he's in a corporate, structure

Marty: Yeah.

Susan: get it done fast, fast and so forth. That's that's their norms. And then there's your norms.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Susan: You get above the level of the problem and you go Joe I've got this job to do. And you've got this job to do, and we seem to be, maybe in a little bit of a tug of war here. Have you noticed that, and what's that feel like to you? This doesn't work. But if you join witness and same thing with a married couple or yourself as a married couple, we're doing this, let's step outside and take a look at what we're doing.

Marty: Gotcha.

Susan: can bring more awareness, more real self-awareness to the issue Problem solve together too. like first acknowledge each other's reality, all.

Marty: right. Got it. That's great. So the let's meet, let's witness what's going on between us here.

Susan: Yeah. The good old witness. Again,

Marty: to use that word, but,

Susan: skill. Some people can't go there, but some of us can and we can. Just by having the concept, I think some of our listeners could begin to develop that.

Marty: yeah I like that. There's always a bigger picture.

Susan: good point.

Marty: Keep going back, isn't that why we go to, I go to church every Sunday to pull back and witness as much of what this really means, in, so that when we come back into context, we can do so effectively.

Bill: Susan, my current wife and I got into a little bit of trouble last summer with each other. There had been some tension building. We, uh, took a trip across the state to Seattle. And spent five days there to celebrate our 13th anniversary. And while we were there, the tension built to a, an unbearable state. And it's about a four and a half hour drive from Seattle back to Spokane. Once we left the intensity of the Seattle traffic area, which contributed a lot to this tension, to really pushing it up between us, that's what exactly what we did. We stepped back away from the experience and said, and, and started out with one of us acknowledging, well, that that was really tense. There was a lot of tension between us.

Susan: great.

Bill: There was a release of emotion around that.

Susan: Yeah. Yeah.

Bill: And then once that was acknowledged we began to talk about, let's talk about what happened. What did you experience? Here's what I experienced. And then we were still talking as we pulled into the driveway four and half hours later.

Susan: That's

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: great. That's a good teaching story, bill. And, but you got yourself a little break, things were heated and then because of the traffic, I guess you needed more of a bit of a break. That's what I'm calling it. You didn't stay engaged in that topic and then, after a few minutes, you, or maybe an hour you go, both go, wow, that sucked,

Bill: right. There might have, you know, there, there may have been other opportunities to, to just step into witness in that way. You know, we were staying at a nice Airbnb and we had time together there, but there were but instead there was tension and like my old survival mechanism of withdrawing took over and I'm watching Netflix and on my computer and kind of avoiding her and that just builds up and that adds to the tension. But, but yeah, that, that break came when we were out of the main traffic and now we could flow and not be so concerned about. Whether or not we were, we were gonna get a ticket or make the wrong turn or miss our turn or something like that. And, and, and then it, yeah. And then it gave us an opportunity. And by the way, that, that was back in August. It is February now. So we haven't missed a Sunday since then because we made an agreement. The agreement was that we would connect to every Sunday on six prompts. Um. That we would answer for ourselves and then share our answers to. And it's been great. It's been fantastic. We haven't, we haven't gone back to that old tension that we were experiencing.

Susan: what are some of the prompts for our listeners here?

Bill: Yeah, I did mention this in another episode, but the first one is, what's a,

Susan: you did 'em

Bill: what's alive inside?

Susan: yeah,

Bill: And that can have to do directly with the relationship or just anything that's going on.

Susan: that's a good one.

Bill: what feels scary to talk about? What needs to be said that hasn't been said. What feels unresolved? And then we just go into kind of a, now let's connect what's your week look like and how did this past week go and, and what and how are we doing on the commitments that we've made to each other?

Susan: Beautiful Bill if every couple did that kind of thing, had a clearing ritual once a week, and I recommend this to all my clients. And I have various clearing rituals spelled out in my books. They wouldn't need me really. I'd be almost out of a job,

Bill: I wanna

Susan: least for couples. You know, that's a couples and and I even recommended it to families doing a similar ritual like that. Soon as the kids get to be verbal, kids love to see their parents be transparent and outta their role,

Bill: yeah.

Marty: Yeah, exactly.

Bill: Susan, I've got a, a personal question for you. What are you experiencing, uh, what's happening? What's alive inside right now for you in this moment?

Susan: I have to pee. When that happens, that takes over your foreground, i'm holding it.

Bill: oh yeah.

Susan: So that's, that is, I mean there's a little humor about that, about my saying that, and that is, I was sitting here going, okay, I am doing good here. You're doing good, Susan. 'Cause I'm still able to multitask.

Bill: Well that was great. I, what I expected you to say was something that reflected the energy that I think I'm picking up from you.

Susan: Ah,

Bill: is a lot of vi, a lot of vigor, a lot of aliveness. Uh,

Susan: yeah.

Bill: high en energy. And I suspect that, if that's accurate. Is that accurate?

Susan: Yeah. Yeah. I feel, I, underneath noise of the peepee thing I feel

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: I feel joy

Bill: Yeah.

Susan: in each moment, pretty

Bill: Can I,

Susan: I'm just grateful to be alive.

Bill: would you tell our listener how old you are listeners?

Susan: I'm 84, I'll be 85 in a couple of

Bill: and I wanna be just like you at, at your age. I'm, I'll be 71 next month. I wanna have the energy that you have when I'm 88, 4 and 85. And I have a theory that the way to have that kind of energy is to do what you love.

Susan: yeah. And telling the truth,

Bill: That's right. Telling the

Susan: I kid about that. 'Cause that's my brand and so forth. So I say that's the secret to my vitality.

Bill: we are gonna be merciful.

Susan: energy moving. I mean, we, uh, we did talk about moving energy

Bill: Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Susan: then the clearing ritual that you and your wife have. Beautiful. Keeps that energy moving.

Bill: Before you go pee, tell, please tell the listener how to engage with you. What would you, where would you send them? What would you invite them to do?

Susan: I have a Substack blog. Some people know what Substack is. But it's like my newsletter. But I put out a couple of blogs a month, and at the end of all my blogs, I, post my upcoming events. So I have a weekend workshop, an in-person workshop at my house coming up in May, and I have honesty salons that are on Zoom ongoing. They're small groups and. And I have a private practice those are the ways to connect with me. And also I have a website, susan campbell.com. But you go to Substack search for Getting Real with Susan Campbell, that's the title of my

Bill: Wonderful.

Susan: that's the title of the Substack blog.

Bill: Thank you so much for joining us. Susan really enjoyed this and so appreciate what you did with me.

Marty: and the whole career. All those books, all those people it's such a gift that you are to the world.

Susan: Thank you. Thanks.

Bill: Thank you, Susan.

Susan: It was really nourishing to me being with you two.

Bill: Thank you.