Change Without Shame and Fear

Marty: This was kind of a catchall conversation. We wound up looking at from within what would really motivate a change in habit around eating.

Bill: And one of the last things you said was that to you, it turns into a spiritual conversation. That I resisted and pushed back against was reaching beyond who I know myself to be and asking for support and help. So fear and shame as motivations. I want nothing more to do with that. I don't want those to motivate any change that I make in my life.

Marty: Right, right.

Bill: welcome to another, uh, Tru You podcast. this is my co-host, Dr. Martin Kettelhut And I'm Bill Tierney. We're both coaches. We coach in different ways, different approaches to supporting our clients. We probably coach, I don't know, maybe the same kinds of clients, maybe not, um, but because of how we focus and what we try to help our comp, our clients to accomplish. And that kind of determines a little bit about how we go about supporting. Why don't we spend a little bit time talking about that, even though I've got an idea of where to go today with our topic. How about we spend a little time? Let's get your voice in the room here and talk a little bit about who we coach and how we coach 'em.

Marty: Yeah, I was just gonna say, um, my clientele, you know, the, the demographics of my clientele has changed, um, several times in major ways. Uh, you know, in the, in the course of a career, it used to be only financial advisors and they were all doing business development work with me. Right. And then, it spread out into other entrepreneurial, like startups and, um, people who run their, like, even dentists. I coached like three or four dentists on the business, not obviously not on dentistry. And, um, and then I wrote the leadership book, and now there's this emphasis on people who are in leadership positions, managers or CEOs or Right? That's also a leadership position. you know, the. The, the, the people that I'm coaching is also different from the people who read my newsletter. So, so there I, I wasn't exactly sure what, what you meant when you said that, honestly, you know, we might be coaching the same people or they might be very different.

Bill: I would imagine that if my clients went to you, they would have a different experience than what they have with me, just because of our approach is, is different. Uh, but I believe also that if my clients went to you, they'd have a positive experience with you. They, they'd get a lot, a lot of value from doing that.

Marty: Yeah. My clients would go to you and they would say, oh, this is where you learn that inner family stuff.

Bill: That's right.

Marty: And it has, it is unavoidable, you know, like. in the sense that I've learned so much from you that it just naturally comes out with me, even though I'm not really trained in it. It, it sneaks into my coaching now. I can't help it.

Bill: Yeah, it's it once, once I began to see through the lens of the internal family systems model, uh, it's hard to not see through that lens anymore because it just seems to make so much sense.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: just seems to explain so much.

Marty: Yeah, it does.

Bill: I, I was, um, talking with, um, someone that's just recently joined the, signed up for the Elevate, um, coach training program that I'm doing with my new partner Rachel Parks

Marty: Ah.

Bill: and, um. The three of us, Rachel, me, and, and the person that just signed up, I won't mention her. I'm sure that Rachel will not mind me mentioning her name, but I don't wanna mention the name of the person that signed up for our cohort 'cause I don't have her permission. But one of the things that we all have in common is that we, we graduated from accomplishment coaching,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: different parts of the country where we took our trainings, different trainers,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and in fact, Rachel was a trainer for accomplishment coaching for about six years . And the, the conversation was about ontological coaching, which is a more traditional coaching approach than coaching with IFS. the question was, how does ontological and IFS coaching compare? And how do you, how do you integrate IFS into coaching? Because IFS is a therapy model, and so I did one of my favorite things to do, which is indulged in my storytelling and, uh, attempted to keep it brief, which I fail at miserably. It's so difficult to tell a full story briefly. but what I shared with this person was that what sold me on IFS as a coaching modality was the experience that I had in therapy and how it changed me from doubting myself and feeling like a fraud after six years of coaching successfully shifting from that state to a state of innate confidence that was not performance based.

Marty: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: And that was, that happened in 2016. And I began my training in 2019 as an IFS practitioner. And, and because I was being trained by therapists, with therapists in the room, and there was 36 of us, I think there were 36 students over the course of an entire year. I got inundated in, into IFS therapy.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I was having my, I had my own therapist I was practicing with, with other therapists and practitioners, uh, to, to do the model. And then I was applying it to my coaching clients. But because the pendulum had swung so far away from looking at cause and effect, trying to solve problems for people, Okay. Looking at things purely from the perspective of who would you have to be in order to get the result that you need to be, and then choosing into that. In other words, that's, that's kind of the way I see ontological coaching and shifting away from that into, let's get curious about what happens inside that you find whatever actions that would be needed to be successful in your objective. So difficult to do. Um, that for the first couple of years after I began training, I, I simply ex helped clients explore their inner worlds without anchors of where do you wanna go? And, and have we arrived there,

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: which are so fundamental to coaching. And when I recognized two years later that that was the case, that, that I was ungrounded in my coaching,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: wasn't anchoring the coaching relationship in an objective and progress measuring. Tracking results that I was feeling lost. And, and that's, that's because I was,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: getting better and better at using the IFS model, but I hadn't been practicing applying the basic principles of coaching, which is I'm a coach, you're a client, you wanna result, I'm here to help you.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And, and that's when, and I was explaining to this person that just signed up for, uh, elevate. That's when I began writing, put putting some structure, and describing. Uh, that's when I realized I just needed to, formalize some structure so that the IFS therapy model became an IFS coaching model. And that's what I created. The, ultimately it ended up being, compassionate Results guidebook that I wrote, uh, so that people would have a guide for. How to use IFS in coaching. And then everything began to just really click because clients were coming in and getting the experience that they would expect and hope to get with any coach, which is clarification about what they wanted to achieve. And then I process using a tool or whatever tools were at the coach's disposal. And in my case, it was all the tools that I'd learned before I learned IFS plus. IFS. So co it turned into, instead of me being an IFS coach, in other words, someone that just used IFS to help people in whatever, to heal their past, taught people how to use IFS instead of just being an IFS coach. Now I became a coach that uses IFS as one of the tools,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and I found it to be far more efficient and effective and anchored and grounded than it ever has been.

Marty: Uhhuh. Mm-hmm. Question, would it be accurate or fair? To say that you could, you could, if you and I were watching somebody else doing a coaching session with a client that I could, I could say, oh, you see why that worked? Because of the ontology. You see, that's ontology. It worked. This is all on to, and you could be look watching the same conversation and say, you see that That's parts work. It's, that's the reason why this is effective is the parts work. See how that part work, blah, blah. Like, would you agree that you could look at the same conversation from either point of view and,

Bill: Well,

Marty: why the coaching itself is effective

Bill: yeah, definitely. You can see any, any situation, any conversation. From either lens, but, but depending on the lens that you're looking through, that's gonna, uh, impact where the conversation goes.

Marty: oh, say more.

Bill: So earlier I defined ontology as, I used it as an, I don't consider myself to be an ontological coach anymore, uh, just because I'm using IFS as the primary tool.

Marty: Uh,

Bill: But, but that doesn't diminish the fact that who someone is being in their lives is what determines how they view what goes on in their lives and therefore what they get out of their lives. What, what ends up happening as they put efforts in

Marty: whatever part is being given voice is also determining a certain way of being.

Bill: Definitely. Absolutely. However, before I learned about IFS. Once it was established, this is who you're being, that you're getting the result that you're getting, or this is who you're being, that you're struggling to get that result. Where we go from there is different, uh, what I used to do as an ontological coach is once it was established and the client really got, oh yeah, this is who I'm being, and then we'd shift to who would you need to be in order to get that result or to get, to be able to move through this, this, this resistance or trouble or, or whatever's happening that's, that's getting in the way. Um, then we would talk about, well, what, what, what would that look like if you were, if that's who you were being, then what would that, what actions would you be taking? And,

Marty: it's interesting. If you don't mind my just slowing this down a little bit. I'm finding this really, I'm like sorting something out for myself here.

Bill: Oh, okay.

Marty: and if it's off topic, we can uh, do it another time, but. It seems to me there are a number of places where you could go, once you recognize who you're being and how that's playing a role in the results you're getting, you could say, well, who do I need to be in order to get those results?

Bill: Yep.

Marty: still might get three or four different answers to that question, but you could also ask a whole different question. You know, it's like, who do you wanna be? that result isn't, you know, forget the result. Who do you wanna be?

Bill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Marty: like there, there seems like there could be different plays that you, way is a good word. Even inside of ontological coaching, it wouldn't necessarily be like, oh, now we gotta figure out the way to be that's gonna produce that result. It's not

Bill: Oh, oh, yeah. No, I didn't mean to represent anybody that's an ontological coach. I'm just telling you how I did it. That what was common for me and what you just now pointed to is that the idea, the possibility that. Uh, if we were just only to look at who would you need to be to get that result, we might miss that that result was only produced, that that desire for that result was only produced. Because you're being who you're being.

Marty: Because,

Bill: You're being who you are being. It,

Marty: right, right.

Bill: it is the, it is the being that I am that chooses this as an objective for coaching.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: What if that being shifted? Who, what if I shifted from who I feel like I have to be? And we could establish that in a conversation. I am being who I think I need to be. I am being who I think people expect me to be, or I am being who I really am. I am being who I want to be.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: All of that shifts what objective a client might come to the coaching to try to achieve. Or they may, they may opt outta coaching altogether if they were just being able, if they're able just to shift into being who they really are

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: so many different options there. Absolutely.

Marty: Got it.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. So, anything more you wanna say about this? I mean, we could make this the entire podcast, if you'd like to. Maybe the difference between different approaches of coaching and, and how, how?

Marty: was something else though that I'm curious what

Bill: Okay.

Marty: there was something else that you had in mind.

Bill: Well the other thing was that I just had an IFS session this morning with an IFS practitioner

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: who approaches coaching through the lens of IFS 100% of the time. what, and while I believe it's this practitioner would agree that it's helpful to have a coaching objective, it's certainly not necessary in order to have a powerful and effective session. Because I'm a coach and because I think in that way, I brought an objective to the coaching session. This was the second coaching coaching session that we had in support of this particular objective.

Marty: Uhhuh,

Bill: And that was that I wanted to change the, my relationship to my body. I wanna change my relationship to food. I wanna change my relationship to exercise and, and activity, which boils down to I wanna change my relationship to my body.

Marty: okay.

Bill: And in our previous session, we explored a group of parts of me that love to snack and say, who cares about the physical impact of just eating whatever I want whenever I want to. And then there's another group of parts that are organized around the principle and concept of, uh, wanting to live longer and, and to live healthy

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and to look as good as I can and feel as good as I can. Those two groups of parts are, have an inner conflict going on. They, they clash

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: basis. And my experience has been that over the past 20 years, off and on, I have dieted, I have given up on, for example, I, I'll give up on sugar bread, pasta and just exclude those from my diet whatsoever to great effect. I'll lose weight, I'll lose my belly. Uh, my face will thin out, my appearance changes. I feel healthier, I feel better. My body likes it better when I don't put sugar and bread and pasta in it.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Uh, but my taste buds the parts of me that use my taste buds for pleasure

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: of to discern whether it's poison or nutritious. Uh. Those, those parts, uh, really love sugar and, and bread and pasta

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: quantities, mass quantities of food and, and pleasure eating. And you know it, and those parts are very influential. Influential as well, especially this time of the year around Christmas, the holidays, and there's so many goodies everywhere. We're recording this on the 30th of December, Christmas being five days ago. Uh, this'll be up to be listened to in the first couple of weeks of January, probably. Uh, but then of course anybody might be listening to this anytime after that. But if someone's listening right about now, right about this time of year, within the next two or three weeks, and like me are experiencing, oh man, I've got this bloatedness, I've got this heaviness. I'm not happy with my body. Looks like. The parts of me that wanna be healthier, that wanna look better, that wanna, wanna feel better, those parts are gonna probably have a a, a hand up here. They're gonna, they're gonna probably have an advantage. My other parts have had their way, it's almost like I'm hungover now and a hangover. That's when you decide you, you're gonna quit drinking. You know, when the price of cigarettes goes up, another $2 a pack, that's when you wanna quit smoking. When it, when it gets painful enough. And so it's kind of, and that, but that's what I'm saying. That's the way it's been for me. I've quit a lot of things. I quit drinking alcohol 43 years ago. I quit smoking pot 45 years ago. I quit smoking cigarettes 30 years ago. So I've quit a lot of things and those things clearly have all stuck. And it's not like I have to try anymore to, to not smoke pot, smoke cigarettes, or, or drink alcohol. I don't have to try anymore. It's just way alive for me. But when it comes to food, oh my, it's, it's a different. Well, let's go ahead and call it an addiction process. 'cause that's probably what it is. But it's a different experience for me, and I can't seem to just stick with a solution that works. I've f I've found and implemented solutions that have worked anyhow, that was the focus, that was the focus this morning going into the session. Get, let's get more interested in that. Let's continue that conversation. And in the very first session, it was great. We, we established clearly the, the parts that are involved in, in the problem and the solution. This time I thought we would be continuing that, that that was the intention going into this session.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: But the practitioner, I'm sure she wouldn't mind me naming her. She's excellent practitioner. I highly recommend her. Her name is Bardi, B-A-R-T-I. Bargo. Bargo. Bargo, sorry, Bardi, if I'm mispronouncing your last name. But, uh, if anybody's interested, I'll, I'll make sure I put bar's. Uh. Um, contact information in show notes. She's excellent. And one of the things that she does is she has me check in to see what's alive inside. That's my language for it. But she's asking me, what do you notice as we're getting ready to explore and as we're talking about all this stuff, this is going on, what's, what are you noticing? And what I noticed was a, a shakiness, a trembling inside.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: We were, I was doing much like, like what I'm doing right now, telling storytelling, giving lots of background. And when I finally finished, she asked me to notice now what was going on inside. And that's what I noticed. A trembling, , a shaking, a fear. And she helped me to really flesh that out. And, uh, I've never explored that before. And once we began to explore it, I, I recognized and, and acknowledged, this is something that's very familiar. This is something I've experienced my whole life. And what we discovered is that it's related to wanting to speak up and speak my truth, whether that's a preference or an opinion or an objection, uh, or a boundary or whatever that would be. Um, just to be heard in full sentences without being interrupted and cut down and, and shamed for doing so, terrifies parts of me.

Marty: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: that's where we ended up going today in that, in that exploration, it was fascinating.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Using the IFS model, we were able to discover that there was a two, 3-year-old version of me that was terrified of my bully parents that would threaten, scream, yell, and actually use physical violence against me. And that has stayed with me. I'm 70, I'll be 71 years old in three months and, and it's still in me after all of those years.

Marty: And is that, is that the same part trembling for similar reasons around food?

Bill: We didn't get that far. I suspect that it is. Uh, it's just that in that style of using the IFS model in coaching, we go with whatever the, the body and the SY system is presenting.

Marty: Sure.

Bill: Whereas in the style that I use, typically we're gonna be more focused on the coaching objective and the coaching request that supports that objective. Unless something like what happened this morning with me and Bardy happened,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: then of course I need to be flexible enough as coach to go there too, because that's the internal systems basically screaming and saying, I need your attention.

Marty: Yeah. Right, right.

Bill: So I'm really glad that I went there this morning. It was an amazing, really amazing session.

Marty: And that, I mean, even, even if not in an, in an IFS way, that is something that can be translated into any other style or form of coaching. Like, you know, even if you're not doing that investigation in, in terms of parts, um, following the energy, like, what's, what's up for you? Or, you know, what, what's on your mind or what, what's most relevant? And, and then following that, I mean, that's something, whether you're doing ontological coaching or any other form of coaching that I think it's good to do. You know, like, this is what's, this is what's going on in the client. Let's discover what that's about.

Bill: Definitely valuable. Uh, and would you agree that it's, it's. Most, maybe most productive and helpful in a coaching relationship to have those two anchors of, this is what I'm here for, remembering, this is why I came to coaching in the first place, and what I'm trying to accomplish

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: tracking and measuring progress in that direction.

Marty: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I

Bill: I

Marty: write down the first thing the client says, no matter what. No matter what it is, I always write that down at the top of the page and then I ask, you know, what's going on and what would you like coaching on? but I've always got in mind like, this is what was the first thing that came out of

Bill: Interesting.

Marty: And it almost always is the key to the

Bill: Really,

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: so you kind of use that as a guide in your coaching then.

Marty: I do.

Bill: Interesting. I did not know that.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: have.

Marty: much so. Right. I was just talking to a guy this morning and the first thing that came out of his mouth. I don't do New Year's resolutions.

Bill: Okay.

Marty: was, and you know, and I just wrote it down. I just wrote resolutions. And then we had this whole conversation about his relationship with his wife, his relationship to his business, you know, and, and, but it was all about he's trying to resolve something right. And be resolved

Bill: Yep.

Marty: what's going to happen next. And like, it's always, to me it's, it, it's almost like this magical key to what, 'cause it's the first thing that pops out of their mouth when they get on the coaching call. It's really

Bill: Yeah, that is very interesting. I'm gonna start paying attention to that more.

Marty: I keep going back to it, you know, then throughout the conversation I was like, well, what do you resolve about that? You know? And then, then the very end, I said, so we've been talking about resolutions the whole time, and you began by saying you don't do resolutions.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: And he was like, yeah, but we talked about it in a very different way what I don't like about doing news resolutions is it just seems a list of things I should do. And the

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: talked about it, inspired, I, you know, I, I'm motivated. This gonna be a great new year when I resolved all these things. So it had a whole different effect, you know, I said, well, that was the original intent of doing resolutions. Oh, I see. He said.

Bill: Well, it occurs to me, I, I feel like I've said as much as I wanna say about my session this morning and, and, uh, the things that we started talking about, like the difference between. We could, we could certainly refocus and point ourselves in the direction of the differences that someone might experience as an ontological coaching or coaching with someone that's trained in the IFS model, especially an IFS coach, that, that's been trained as I train them, which is to always make sure you have a coaching objective and, and then once that's established, pay attention to the parts that show up, uh, and, and bring attention to those.

Marty: we could also mention other styles of coaching. Like I, I think one of the big, uh, forms of coaching that's out there that is not IFS and is not ontological is something you might call performance coaching

Bill: Okay.

Marty: is, it works a lot like athletic coaching, you know, but it's, it might be in business or, or in family relations or something like that, but

Bill: So what would describe that, what would that look like if I, if I were your client and I came to you and you're a performance coach? What would that look like?

Marty: Well, I don't do it, but, you know, it's, it's, it's all about more, it's all about more. Pushing, pushing, doing more, doing, doing more faster, you know, doing, more even higher, like the, all of that. It's,

Bill: see. Yeah. Got it. Got it.

Marty: there's no question about who you're being, like, who cares? Just get out there and run those laps, you know? Mm-hmm.

Bill: Okay. So this would be more like a business coach. The, the most business coaches, I should say, that I've encountered are saying, here's the key performance indicators. Um, this is what it that takes for you to achieve what it is that you're trying to, so based on those KPIs, how are we doing this week and what got in the way, and what would you do to correct that? And, and, and, uh.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: What, what bigger, deeper problem does this point to that might need to be addressed And

Marty: Or here's an exercise to do to help you get better at that, right?

Bill: yes. Got it. Yep. And that's very useful. I, I really benefited from having a business coach that coached me in that way.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And because I already had a, a village of support to help me with any of my ontological, uh, or trauma-based internal resistance to taking those actions, I, I got, I brought that support in as well. So the combination of, uh, more of a logical direct measurement of progress and identification of actions and accountability accordingly,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: with the emotional, uh, support that I needed to deal with, my inner reactions to all of that was very helpful. Very helpful.

Marty: Yeah. So, yeah, I just wanted to, there. In other words, just so the, listeners, you know, aren't led to think that we think there's only. IFS or ontological. There are all, there are a variety of other ways that coaching happens

Bill: Yeah. Um, my, Meredith, my, and she's been on her podcast, uh, on the leadership coaching podcast. She is a marketing, I don't know that she calls herself a marketing coach, but I would consider her that she's a consultant. And, um, but that's certainly in the same category of coaching that you just, um, described where she's the expert, she's the marketing expert, and, um, and, and then my job as client is to, to determine of the expertise that she brings, what can I implement? What will I implement?

Marty: Right, right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, but you, had a suggestion as to where we go in the conversation now.

Bill: Yeah, you're an ontological coach. Yes.

Marty: I don't, I don't say that anywhere in print. I mean, it has influenced my coaching. It plays a big role, but I feel like I am, I'm using a lot of different, you know, whatever I need from my background. Um, and ontology is one of those, but it's,

Bill: Okay. Well, here's what I wanna propose, and that would be that you coach me today. We've got about 20 minutes before we need to wrap up the session.

Marty: mm-hmm.

Bill: like you could coach me?

Marty: Sure.

Bill: Okay.

Marty: do you feel coachable?

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Okay.

Bill: Yeah. You know, and that's a good question because I don't always feel coachable. In fact, one of the parts that I ex discovered this morning is a part that wants me to speak the genuine truth and really be fully self-expressed, but is remiss to do so if there's not safety in the conversation. And so if I'm not feeling safe, I'm not feeling coachable. I feel safe with you, of course. And, uh, and despite the fact that this is a, this is gonna be available for anybody to listen to, I also still feel coachable.

Marty: Great.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: What's your request?

Bill: Well, let's, let's focus on what we've been talking about, uh, which is the, uh, which, what, which is what Bar and I have begun to talk about my relationship with my body, my relationship to food, and my relationship to exercise.

Marty: Well, just, I'm curious about something that you said in this regard. You said, you know, I've given up a lot of things, cigarettes, pot drinking. this is different you said,

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: and I I'm sure it is. And I'm just curious how.

Bill: in so many ways, and I, and I've, I've talked to a lot of people that also struggle with food or struggle with codependency, for example, relationships. It's almost like we, we, we need to be in relationship with other people. So if, uh, how do you, how do you shift from being codependent in relationship to not being codependent in relationship? You can't just give up relationships, I guess. You can, and people do, they're hermits and, and they don't, they, they, they minimize exposure to other people. But when it, same as food, food from, I've, I've heard rumors that people can survive without food. That I, I wouldn't wanna try it.

Marty: And you don't need to to be who you wanna be and how you wanna live.

Bill: Well, yeah. So what I'm saying is that with alcohol, with pot, and with cigarettes. I know that if I had a drink of alcohol, I'd be putting myself in danger of convincing myself that I don't have a problem with alcohol anymore.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: If I hit, if I smoke pot right now, or how, however you intake cannabis. Now if I did any of that, um, I might, I might really like it and I might just go back to doing it and find myself completely blindsided by another addictive process that I got involved in. Same with cigarettes. I don't dare have a cigarette. I don't dare take a puff off a cigarette for fear that, uh, if I did something might get triggered inside that says, Hey, this is pretty great. I like this. I wanna do a lot more of it. So

Marty: okay, so, and then with food.

Bill: gotta eat. I can't give up food.

Marty: Okay. But isn't the, we're talking about an, not just eating, but. Snack, overeating, eating things you shouldn't. Right,

Bill: Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: and I mean, shouldn't in the sense that you would agree with, not in some moral sense.

Bill: Right. So I, I, as I mentioned, I over the last 20 years have had success for limited periods of time. And, and so it's different in that way as well that I didn't just with, when I gave up alcohol, I didn't just try not drinking for a week to see how I liked it, to see if I could tolerate it and to see if I got benefit and then measured after a week or not, whether I was getting enough benefit to continue to not drink alcohol. I think if I'd have done it that way, I never would've been able to quit.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Same with cigarettes, same with.

Marty: Sure.

Bill: Um, with, with eating, when I cut out sugar and bread and pasta, after a week, I can step on the scale and see I've lost a pound and a half to three pounds somewhere in there.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: After a month, I've lost eight pounds. After three months, I've lost 20 pounds,

Marty: Right.

Bill: not, maybe six months before I lost 20 pounds. But it's clear and measurable and, and the decision to sacrifice, that's what it feels like too. Sacrifice my, my preference for sugar and pasta and bread, uh, for what my body feels and looks like. Um, it, it does, it doesn't seem as solid, uh, or as, as sustainable. There we go. It doesn't seem as sustainable as my ability to just make a clear decision. I'm not gonna drink smoke, I'm not gonna drink, and I'm not gonna smoke.

Marty: how, What's the difference? I'm genuinely curious.

Bill: I can only tell you that it hasn't been sustainable,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: that, you know, for, for whatever reason, whether it's because I plateau on the, on the weight loss because of, because the discomfort of wanting to snack and then telling myself, no, is too great. I, I don't know.

Marty: and that, um, that was not the case with alcohol.

Bill: So interesting. No, there were, I, I will say that in my first year of not drinking,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: were probably three different occasions when I wanted to drink really badly, and actually one of those times had made a decision to drink and then. There was divine intervention and it didn't happen, and I was relieved when it didn't happen and was able to recommit. But after that first year, I didn't wanna drink again. I've never wanted to drink again. After that first year, I, I haven't wanted to smoke again since the, my day one of not smoking.

Marty: So what I'm learning is that, that we need a different analogy, like the analogy between food and let's alcohol and cigarette, the, it doesn't fit. 'cause have a different relationship to food than you do to those things. And so that, that it's not, we shouldn't compare those. We, let's, let's think about like, what is, a better analogy? Something, something that you can, or have brought, you know, under your own charge and made a lasting decision in your own health and welfares, you know,

Bill: I would say money's a good example of that. So, you know, I guess we could get into debating whether or not it's necessary to have, earn and spend money. Uh, I could probably exchange on a barter, not have to have to have money, but, uh, in, in, in the world that I live in, that it's a way to know. Anyhow, I, I make money. I spend money and I save money.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: debt. I pay down debt, I pay off debt. So that whole area has improved dramatically.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I used to be just absolutely horrible with money and.

Marty: And what is the, what motivates that? What That, that, that, that's an area that you, you've seen fluctuations and you've taken charge of and create it the way you want it.

Bill: What, what do you, what's the question?

Marty: Um, well, what's the difference between that and the food, if any?

Bill: That, that is a really great question. I, I can tell you, I can describe the experience that I've had with both. I think I've described maybe enough of my experience with food. I could tell you more about that. But the, the experience with money was that when Kathy and I got together, uh, I acknowledged and admitted. I didn't try to hide that I really had bad habits with money.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: and I asked for her support and her help. I told her, I set an intention. I don't want to be bad with money. I wanna be good with money. I wanna start, you know, saving more of it, spending less of it,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: being more responsible with it and be less. Impulsive with it. Stop using it for immediate gratification. And I asked her to help me in my decision making

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and she agreed to doing so.

Marty: So I'm like, you see how this suggests itself? Like, oh my God, those are all of the things you want around food. And I just wonder if we drop the analogy to, you know, those addictive substances, because this is different. You need to eat right? But just we need to, you know, earn and spend money. Maybe there's a better analogy in how you took charge and got what the results you wanted around money to the food situation. That's just one suggestion.

Bill: I like that a lot. And I, it brings up something I've been wanting to acknowledge out loud. And I don't know that I, that I have yet with you or with anybody. And that is that when I quit those three things, cigarettes, alcohol, and pot,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I did so within the context of pain and pleasure. It had gotten too painful. All three of them had gotten too painful. And the threat of potential loss if I didn't quit those

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: was so great that operating within fear of loss and shame about my behavior, shame that I smoked, I felt like the scum of the earth, uh, shame that I was drinking when I realized I was putting so much at stake and, uh, hurting so many people with it, uh, fear, uh, with my pot smoking that my wife would leave me if I didn't. Fear that if I didn't quit drinking, my wife would leave me. So fear and shame as motivations. I, I want nothing more to do with that. I don't want those to motivate any change that I make in my life.

Marty: Right, right. So that, this brings up the, the second piece. Uh, for me, you know, switching the, an analogy to, you know, being more like the money situation, um, which you have mastered, um, uh, is the motivation, 'cause I heard you say a few minutes ago, like, well, it is just not enough that you know, that, that I would look better and feel better like that. That's just not enough for me. I still will go on a binge with

Bill: Right? It hasn't been.

Marty: So I would, I would just wanna, I'm not saying that it should be, in fact, I, what I'm saying is like, well that's, that's good to notice that, just looking and feeling better is not, that's not the thing that's gonna get you to change around your food, right? I mean,

Bill: Right.

Marty: for worse. You, you, you would. You will continue to eat in a way that you're trying to change. If it only depends, if the only motivation is that you're gonna look a little better and feel a little better, so that's, that's something that we, you know, you would wanna really look at what motivated you're getting a handle on money. Is it something similar or does there need to be a whole new, know, like mo reason, reason to do this?

Bill: Yeah. I mean, all of the reasons that I've explored in the past have not been enough, including being around long enough to watch my kids grow, grow up, watch my grandkids grow up, watch my grandkids, have gr, have kids.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: that's happening. Even though I'm eating and not happy with my body, I'm, I'm 70, I'll be 71 in three months. But I'm thinking more in terms of 90 to a hundred and still being clear-minded and having a healthy body. I'd like to stick around a long time. So while, while all of that's true and I love all those people that I wanna be sticking around for and with, it still hasn't been enough,

Marty: Mm-hmm. That, I mean, that, that's something that I think you wanna, do some soul searching around, like, just like, is there a reason in there in me, is there a reason in me to bother with this? Because if not, it's, you know, it's,

Bill: then why am I, why am I bothered at all by it?

Marty: right.

Bill: Is there a reason to bother be bothered with it? Otherwise, why am I bothering with it at all?

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: I like that. That's a great, great question. Why am I bothering with this? So maybe that's the place to go. Why am I bothering with it? Why am I bothered by it?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Vanity. I don't like, I don't like what my, I look like with, with a big belly. I don't like what I look like and feel like with extra weight on my body. So that's, that's true.

Marty: Okay.

Bill: But that points to pain. That pain points to pain and discomfort, that also points to shame. And, would I, would I like to look in the mirror and, and like what I see? Absolutely. I see pictures of myself when I was not that much younger, you know, periods over the last 20 years when I have stayed with the diet and lost that weight and fit into my clothes better. Kathy and I got married 13 years ago and I got down to 150 pounds and looked great. And I see those wedding pictures now and I think, God, that I'd really like to look and feel that way again. And it's not enough.

Marty: so, the fear and the shame piece, I think that's, that's. It, it sounds like that that's part of the reason we're shifting away from comparing it to those other things. Um, I, is there, is there a reason coming from love of yourself or or others, is there a reason coming from love to alter your eating? If not, if you know the shame and fear piece doesn't

Bill: it seems like despite that, you know, so I'm, I'm acknowledging that the fear and the shame as motivators haven't been enough

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and yet here they are still the very first things that I can see. I can't seem to see past those.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: Yeah, and I, and that's a great question. Is there, is there a reason motivated by love?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Yes. And that's not enough either. I mean, what I, what I said earlier about wanting to be around and watch my kids and family be around with and for them

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: for a long, long time, that's based in love and it's not enough

Marty: I, I'm feeling a little bit like we're looking for a good reason to, to fit the occasion. Right. And, and I would invite you to look and see if in that, like you said, why it bothers me if the, if there's a, you know, a reason that just, like, it just grows naturally out of there. as opposed to, well, let me look and see, you know. Oh yeah. Other people. Like, is e it is either innate. Or there isn't one.

Bill: Oh, it is. It's there. It's innate. And when I was speaking earlier about having parts,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: that innate reason is embraced by parts of me who, if they were unopposed, this would no longer be an issue. I would be eating right. I'd be in balance, I'd be harmonious. My body would be, I balance, and I'd be treating myself in such a way that, that my body was fed, uh, appropriately

Marty: sounds like we should talk about those parts and what they're saying.

Bill: maybe. Yeah.

Marty: Right? Because if, if they weren't there, you said you

Bill: if the, if the opposition wasn't there, if there weren't parts, uh, that were using food that were, or that influenced me to use food, like I used to use alcohol or cigarettes or pot,

Marty: So

Bill: I,

Marty: is an analogy you use those, those snack. Say more about that. What is the, using it like you used alcohol.

Bill: pleasure. Escape, shut down.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Yeah. Uh, and from, from out here, just reporting on, on my experience, even answering that question, um, requires that I speculate a bit because what I've learned through IFS is that I, I have analytical and logical parts that can make sense. It's certainly a try, an attempt to make sense of why my other parts do what they do.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: But until I actually explore and ask those parts that are influencing me to do what, to, to, to do what they, that are influencing me as they do, I don't really understand. I can, it's only speculation.

Marty: right, right. at the same time I get that I, it sounds to me like you're saying that desire for pleasure, escape and shut down, that's just shifted from alcohol and pot and cigarettes over to food.

Bill: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Marty: So that's, that's, that's what there is to, to attend to.

Bill: I think so too.

Marty: right?

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: seeking of escape, and shutdown.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: What, what would, I mean, I, and I can relate to that. I have a little bit of a transparency with this. So, you know, I might not be your best coach on this

Bill: What do you mean?

Marty: because I don't, I can't, can't see around the issue because I'm in it.

Bill: Oh, I see, I see. Wow. Let me just acknowledge you for acknowledging that that might sound real coachy for me to say that, but I just, I think that's, that's amazing when, when someone that, as you are, is supporting me and acknowledges that they've got, that they're on the court,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: that's really important. That's really, really powerful. So thank you for that.

Marty: So when I ask myself that question, you know, like, and I do ask myself that question, like, you know, can't I just have, you know, an e an enjoyable evening where I don't have to find some way to pleasure myself or escape from life, or shut down numb out?

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: what would it be like, you know, this is the, the, I think the real genuine question from, well, that I ask myself, it's like. That I know for example, that that when I had an extended period of time when I didn't drink or smoke, that it, that, uh, there was an an just a completely other level of pleasure escape and shutting down a whole other level. It's like, why am I doing pleasure escape and shutdown in first gear, namely under the influence when the pleasure and escape that's available when I'm not drugged out is even more, is even better. That's, and so I find the motivation for myself is knowing that when I'm sober, the pleasure and escape is so much better.

Bill: Well, I, I, I'm hearing pleasure and escape as synonymous with, I think what you mean by that, correct me if I'm wrong, is that it's not really pleasure. It's it's presence and it's not really escape, it's presence.

Marty: Right. Right. I mean, and the, so, right. Exactly. That's the point, is that what the, the pleasure isn't the pleasure of being tipsy. It's the pleasure of being in this moment

Bill: Yes,

Marty: and, and, picking up on stuff and enjoying all the nuances and detail. Right. It's a, it's like, it's the difference between like brown pleasure and gold pleasure, you know?

Bill: Someone asked me, well, it was Bardy this morning when we first came into the conversation. You know how you said you write things, the first thing someone says down at the beginning of session, she, uh, I said, how, how's your, how's your Christmas? And she told me and she said, how's your Christmas? Are you getting lots of rest? And, 'cause she knew I was taking this week off from coaching people and I wanted to an answer her. She's just someone like you are who I just wanna be honest with and, and have. Fidelity in, in, in my words. Um, and I said, I don't know that I know how to rest. I really don't know if I know how to rest. And, uh, the reason I guess that that's coming up right now is that at the end of a day when I've expended the energy that it takes to be focused and present with my clients, or engaged in running my business and making decisions and administering all the executive actions that I need to, to, to run my business, I'm tired. I'm hungry, hungry. You know, I'm ready for a good meal and I'm tired. I just want to, I just want to shut everything down and zone out. And so what I'll do is I'll sit on the couch and I'll. Watch a ball game or something, like something on Netflix or Prime with my wife. We'll have a nice meal. We'll do cleanup. It's a, it's kind of a routine. It's not a, it's nothing, there's nothing horrible about any of that. But in between all of that, if earlier in the afternoon I walk out of my office after session, even if I'm not hungry, I'll go grazing, I'll go looking in the refrigerator, what is there to graze on, what is there that I can just snack and put in my mouth to, to have some pleasure to, to move around and, and that sort of thing. So there's a lot of clues there. Uh, but slowing down and actually sitting down and just resting without, distracting my attention and getting my brain, giving my brain something to do, like watch a TV show. Um, there's some clues in there as well. I think.

Marty: Yeah, I had a client once who, was saying similar things to what you're saying right now, and I, I asked him to work, so I don't know how much this is gonna apply, but I'm just telling a story that, a true story that I asked him to focus both on, where he might be resisting his work such that he would need something to pleasure, you know, get, get, uh, work, work, work, work. This is so hard. I gotta, now I gotta go take a break and get some pleasure. look at what the resistance is on that side, but then also. You know, look at what is really pleasurable

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: because, you know, you know, like he would, he would get off of work and have beer, and he loved beer. That was his thing. Beer, beer, beer.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Marty: And, um, and then, but, but then, then he said, well, you know, like, I like one or two, and then I start to become less able to talk to my wife or to fix the car. He loved to work on his car. Like, I'm just not as good. And then I have that, that sensation in my stomach of being bloated. was like, well, that doesn't sound like pure pleasure. What, what? You know? So I had him look on both sides of the equation. Where's the resistance to the work that makes you seek something to fix that afterwards what is really pleasurable to you?

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: And that opened up, that opened things up. And he, he went into a different line of work for one thing.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: always felt he had to perform. He was on the, you

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: on the clock and people were watching and what are the results. And so he, that he was able to eliminate that, he actually, he opened up a, uh, a nursery school. He, his wife, you know, other people leave their kids with them during the day,

Bill: Hmm.

Marty: go to work. And that's what, and doesn't have that same need to have some beer afterwards, you know,

Bill: Oh, nice.

Marty: been having pleasure all day long. Right.

Bill: Yeah, I think that you've got something there. I think there's something to look at there. Um, I'm noticing the time. I think we might wanna just begin to wrap up now. Uh,

Marty: myself, just, uh, you know, on the, on the other side, you know, I, for me this is becomes a spiritual conversation because I. I get a lot more out of intellectual and spiritual life than I do out of a bottle of wine.

Bill: yeah.

Marty: And, and so for me, you know, if, if, if I'm, you know, seeking real pleasure, then, then the bottle of wine's gonna have all these entailments that are not pleasurable. Whereas, you know, reading or, or, or just meditating, gonna gimme a much more sustained and clean high.

Bill: Or playing, you know, music,

Marty: Right?

Bill: connection, game, board game with my wife something. Yeah,

Marty: I just wanna acknowledge, like when I saw that there was a transparency here for me, I went into conversation instead of coaching.

Bill: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was a great conversation and I got some insights out of it and, uh, it was valuable. Um, and I'll just say that, you know, it seems like. The, you just basically validated the direction that, that Bardy and I had been going in is let's just find out what these parts are trying to accomplish and what, what it is about. I mean, I, as you know, I love coaching. I love the work that I do, so what is it that, what parts feel like I need to get relief from? What it, the effort that it takes to coach

Marty: Right,

Bill: what parts are actually putting effort into it? Because when coaching is going great, I'm not actually needing to put any effort at all in,

Marty: right,

Bill: alright. Till next time,

Marty: bye.